Supreme court decides you have no right to prove your innocence

You seem to be a little confused in the wordage, so please allow me to help you.

Your information is about the cost of incarceration, while mine is about the execution itself.
Does that help clarify?? :)

Your other inclusion proved nothing to support your assertion that innocent people have been exectued; so unless you have nothiing else to present, you have nothing. :readit:

NO, it's about the cost of death penalty CASES vs. life in prison sentences

You can't GET to an execution without the costs incurred, they are NOT just the cost of incarceration...that is a small percentage...

It's really shameful that a citizen of this country could be so incurious about something that literally means life or death to fellow Americans...

I gave you a number of cases where a human being was put to death, even though there is strong evidence of innocence...

With 133 people released from death row since 1973 because of later evidence of their innocence, do you think it is unreasonable to surmise that at least ONE innocent human being was executed?

Maybe you need to read you signature and take your own advise...you have let passion for punishment overcome reasoning...and like you say...FREEDOM IS NOT FREE...it requires standing up to injustice not just for you, but for everyone!

THE FINANCIAL COSTS OF THE DEATH PENALTY

Death penalty cases are much more expensive than other criminal cases and cost more than imprisonment for life with no possibility of parole. In California, capital trials are six times more costly than other murder trials. A study in Kansas indicated that a capital trial costs $116,700 more than an ordinary murder trial. Complex pre-trial motions, lengthy jury selections, and expenses for expert witnesses are all likely to add to the costs in death penalty cases. The irreversibility of the death sentence requires courts to follow heightened due process in the preparation and course of the trial. The separate sentencing phase of the trial can take even longer than the guilt or innocence phase of the trial. And defendants are much more likely to insist on a trial when they are facing a possible death sentence. After conviction, there are constitutionally mandated appeals which involve both prosecution and defense costs.

Most of these costs occur in every case for which capital punishment is sought, regardless of the outcome. Thus, the true cost of the death penalty includes all the added expenses of the "unsuccessful" trials in which the death penalty is sought but not achieved. Moreover, if a defendant is convicted but not given the death sentence, the state will still incur the costs of life imprisonment, in addition to the increased trial expenses.

For the states which employ the death penalty, this luxury comes at a high price. In Texas, a death penalty case costs taxpayers an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. In Florida, each execution is costing the state $3.2 million. In financially strapped California, one report estimated that the state could save $90 million each year by abolishing capital punishment. The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/599#sxn5
 
NO, it's about the cost of death penalty CASES vs. life in prison sentences

You can't GET to an execution without the costs incurred, they are NOT just the cost of incarceration...that is a small percentage...

It's really shameful that a citizen of this country could be so incurious about something that literally means life or death to fellow Americans...

I gave you a number of cases where a human being was put to death, even though there is strong evidence of innocence...

With 133 people released from death row since 1973 because of later evidence of their innocence, do you think it is unreasonable to surmise that at least ONE innocent human being was executed?

Maybe you need to read you signature and take your own advise...you have let passion for punishment overcome reasoning...and like you say...FREEDOM IS NOT FREE...it requires standing up to injustice not just for you, but for everyone!

THE FINANCIAL COSTS OF THE DEATH PENALTY

Death penalty cases are much more expensive than other criminal cases and cost more than imprisonment for life with no possibility of parole. In California, capital trials are six times more costly than other murder trials. A study in Kansas indicated that a capital trial costs $116,700 more than an ordinary murder trial. Complex pre-trial motions, lengthy jury selections, and expenses for expert witnesses are all likely to add to the costs in death penalty cases. The irreversibility of the death sentence requires courts to follow heightened due process in the preparation and course of the trial. The separate sentencing phase of the trial can take even longer than the guilt or innocence phase of the trial. And defendants are much more likely to insist on a trial when they are facing a possible death sentence. After conviction, there are constitutionally mandated appeals which involve both prosecution and defense costs.

Most of these costs occur in every case for which capital punishment is sought, regardless of the outcome. Thus, the true cost of the death penalty includes all the added expenses of the "unsuccessful" trials in which the death penalty is sought but not achieved. Moreover, if a defendant is convicted but not given the death sentence, the state will still incur the costs of life imprisonment, in addition to the increased trial expenses.

For the states which employ the death penalty, this luxury comes at a high price. In Texas, a death penalty case costs taxpayers an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. In Florida, each execution is costing the state $3.2 million. In financially strapped California, one report estimated that the state could save $90 million each year by abolishing capital punishment. The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/599#sxn5


So maybe the length of incarceration should be shortened!!
I reiterate: It doesn't cost that much to execute someone.

And yet; since there is such "strong evidence", then why hasn't someone spent the time and money to prove it??

But then, the reason is; because they can't prove it and therefore they just want to continue whining about it.
 
I reiterate: It doesn't cost that much to execute someone.

did you miss this:

"Death penalty cases are much more expensive than other criminal cases and cost more than imprisonment for life with no possibility of parole."

ergo...taking someone to court and seeking the death penalty ends up costing more than if you just sought life without parole.
 
did you miss this:

"Death penalty cases are much more expensive than other criminal cases and cost more than imprisonment for life with no possibility of parole."

ergo...taking someone to court and seeking the death penalty ends up costing more than if you just sought life without parole.


Are you saying that Lawyers, Jurists, Judges, and everyone else gets paid more; when they are in a case that involves the death penalty??

If not, then the cost is the length of time that it takes to carry out the sentence is where the extra expense comes from.

Am I correct and if so, then why didn't you offer that??
 
Are you saying that Lawyers, Jurists, Judges, and everyone else gets paid more; when they are in a case that involves the death penalty??

If not, then the cost is the length of time that it takes to carry out the sentence is where the extra expense comes from.

Am I correct and if so, then why didn't you offer that??

you are not correct.

there are many other costs, including the built in cost of mandatory appeal and review which are not there for simple life without parole sentences.
 
you are not correct.

there are many other costs, including the built in cost of mandatory appeal and review which are not there for simple life without parole sentences.


But; anyone can appeal, so your presenting a strawman argument.
That is, unless you can break down the costs for each thing you believe to be true.
 

What's wrong, can't you present your own evidence??

Here, let me help.

Show the comparison for an murder trial, where they aren't considering the death penalty, and compare the cost to one where the death penalty is on the table.

Now; show the appeal comparison costs.

We can get to the incarceration costs later.
 
Keep in mind, this was written in 1994, so the cost figures are much higher today...

Time Is Money

Death penalty cases are so expensive because they take longer at every stage and require vast resources for both the prosecution and the defense. The authors of the North Carolina study identified 24 principal areas in which a death penalty case would likely be more expensive than if the case were tried non-capitally. These areas included:

*More investigative work by both law enforcement officials and the defense team

* More pre-trial motions
* More questioning concerning individual jurors' views on capital punishment and more peremptory challenges to jurors at jury selection
* The appointment of two defense attorneys
* A longer and more complex trial
* A separate penalty phase conducted in front of a jury
* A more thorough review of the case on direct appeal
* More post-trial motions
* Greater likelihood that counsel will be appointed for a federal habeas corpus petition
* Greater likelihood that there will be full briefing and argument on federal review
* More preparation for, and a longer clemency proceeding.

The North Carolina study estimated that a death penalty trial takes about four times longer than a non-capital murder trial. And, of course, not every death penalty trial results in a death sentence. Based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors found that less than a third of capital trials resulted in a death sentence. Nevertheless, each of the these trials had the extra expense associated with death penalty proceedings. The trial costs alone were about $200,000 more for each death penalty imposed than if no death penalty was involved.

The authors computed the costs of appealing a death penalty case and subtracted the savings which accrue to the state when an execution finally occurs. The "savings," which are due to the inmate no longer being kept at state expense, only occur when an execution is actually carried out. As with the trial level, there is a "failure" rate resulting from the fact that many inmates who are sentenced to death will never be executed. Many cases will be overturned on appeal, some inmates will commit suicide, others will die of natural causes. Again, based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors estimated that only one inmate would likely be executed for every ten who are sentenced to death. This is actually higher than the national rate where only about one in every eleven cases which have been resolved has resulted in an execution.

Bulk Of Costs at Trial Level


The importance of accounting for this failure rate is critical for two reasons. First, it represents a truer picture of what it is actually costing the state to achieve an execution. It is not just the cost of a single person's trial and appeals. That would be comparable to saying that the cost of landing a man on the moon was the cost of fuel for the one rocket which brought him there. The state has to pay more for all the trials and appeals which start out as death penalty cases but for which there will never be the "saving" associated with an execution.

Second, the per execution costs reveal that the bulk of death penalty costs occur at the trial level. Often those who acknowledge the high costs of the death penalty believe that the expense is due to "endless appeals." By taking into account the capital cases which will never result in an execution, the North Carolina study makes clear that the trials produce the largest share of death penalty costs and these costs will not be substantially lessened by tinkering with the opportunities that death row inmates have to appeal. A significant financial corollary of this finding is that taxpayers must pay death penalty expenses up front, whereas the costs of a life sentence are meted out gradually over many years, making that alternative even less expensive.

Evidence from Other States

There have been numerous indications from other areas of the country that the death penalty is straining the budgets of state and local governments and that the financial drain is getting worse. Some counties have been brought to the brink of bankruptcy because of death penalty cases. More county commissioners have risked going to jail for balking at paying for capital prosecutions, while others reluctantly raise taxes to pay the costs of even one capital case.

*In San Diego, California, the prosecution costs alone (not counting defense costs or appeals) for three capital cases averaged over half a million dollars each. One estimate puts the total California death penalty expense bill at $1 billion since 1977. California has executed two people during that time, one of whom refused to appeal his case.

*In Jasper County, Mississippi, the Circuit Judge and the District Attorney had to address the county supervisors to get more money for death penalty prosecutions. The only solution was to raise county taxes. "It's going to be a fairly substantial increase," said the board president, John Sims. "I hope the taxpayers understand...."

*In Connecticut, a state with only a handful of death row inmates, The Connecticut Law Tribune was unable to calculate the total costs of capital punishment but concluded that the "costs are staggering." State's attorney Mark Solak said he spent between 1,000 and 1,500 hours preparing one capital prosecution. The defense attorney in the case noted that if his client had been given an offer of life in prison without parole he would have accepted it "in a heartbeat." "The case," he said, "would have been over in 15 minutes. . . . No one would have spent a penny."

*In South Carolina, The Sun News reported that the bills for death penalty cases are "skyrocketing" because of a state supreme court ruling that attorneys in death penalty cases deserve reasonable fees. Before the decision, attorneys received no more than $2,500 for each death penalty case.

*It took six years to extradite Charles Ng from Canada to California mainly because Canada resisted the prospect of sending someone to a possible death sentence. Since coming to California, the case has cost Calaveras County $3.2 million, an amount which would have bankrupt the county except for the fact that the state agreed to reimburse the county until 1995. Now it looks as though the bailout will have to last until the year 2000, with millions more in expenses yet to come.

*In Harris County, Texas, there are 135 pending death penalty cases. State Judge Miron Love estimated that if the death penalty is assessed in just 20 percent of these cases, it will cost the taxpayers a minimum of $60 million. Judge Love, who oversees the county's courts, remarked: "We're running the county out of money."
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/599#sxn5
 
Keep in mind, this was written in 1994, so the cost figures are much higher today...

Time Is Money

Death penalty cases are so expensive because they take longer at every stage and require vast resources for both the prosecution and the defense. The authors of the North Carolina study identified 24 principal areas in which a death penalty case would likely be more expensive than if the case were tried non-capitally. These areas included:

*More investigative work by both law enforcement officials and the defense team

* More pre-trial motions
* More questioning concerning individual jurors' views on capital punishment and more peremptory challenges to jurors at jury selection
* The appointment of two defense attorneys
* A longer and more complex trial
* A separate penalty phase conducted in front of a jury
* A more thorough review of the case on direct appeal
* More post-trial motions
* Greater likelihood that counsel will be appointed for a federal habeas corpus petition
* Greater likelihood that there will be full briefing and argument on federal review
* More preparation for, and a longer clemency proceeding.

The North Carolina study estimated that a death penalty trial takes about four times longer than a non-capital murder trial. And, of course, not every death penalty trial results in a death sentence. Based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors found that less than a third of capital trials resulted in a death sentence. Nevertheless, each of the these trials had the extra expense associated with death penalty proceedings. The trial costs alone were about $200,000 more for each death penalty imposed than if no death penalty was involved.

The authors computed the costs of appealing a death penalty case and subtracted the savings which accrue to the state when an execution finally occurs. The "savings," which are due to the inmate no longer being kept at state expense, only occur when an execution is actually carried out. As with the trial level, there is a "failure" rate resulting from the fact that many inmates who are sentenced to death will never be executed. Many cases will be overturned on appeal, some inmates will commit suicide, others will die of natural causes. Again, based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors estimated that only one inmate would likely be executed for every ten who are sentenced to death. This is actually higher than the national rate where only about one in every eleven cases which have been resolved has resulted in an execution.

Bulk Of Costs at Trial Level


The importance of accounting for this failure rate is critical for two reasons. First, it represents a truer picture of what it is actually costing the state to achieve an execution. It is not just the cost of a single person's trial and appeals. That would be comparable to saying that the cost of landing a man on the moon was the cost of fuel for the one rocket which brought him there. The state has to pay more for all the trials and appeals which start out as death penalty cases but for which there will never be the "saving" associated with an execution.

Second, the per execution costs reveal that the bulk of death penalty costs occur at the trial level. Often those who acknowledge the high costs of the death penalty believe that the expense is due to "endless appeals." By taking into account the capital cases which will never result in an execution, the North Carolina study makes clear that the trials produce the largest share of death penalty costs and these costs will not be substantially lessened by tinkering with the opportunities that death row inmates have to appeal. A significant financial corollary of this finding is that taxpayers must pay death penalty expenses up front, whereas the costs of a life sentence are meted out gradually over many years, making that alternative even less expensive.

Evidence from Other States

There have been numerous indications from other areas of the country that the death penalty is straining the budgets of state and local governments and that the financial drain is getting worse. Some counties have been brought to the brink of bankruptcy because of death penalty cases. More county commissioners have risked going to jail for balking at paying for capital prosecutions, while others reluctantly raise taxes to pay the costs of even one capital case.

*In San Diego, California, the prosecution costs alone (not counting defense costs or appeals) for three capital cases averaged over half a million dollars each. One estimate puts the total California death penalty expense bill at $1 billion since 1977. California has executed two people during that time, one of whom refused to appeal his case.

*In Jasper County, Mississippi, the Circuit Judge and the District Attorney had to address the county supervisors to get more money for death penalty prosecutions. The only solution was to raise county taxes. "It's going to be a fairly substantial increase," said the board president, John Sims. "I hope the taxpayers understand...."

*In Connecticut, a state with only a handful of death row inmates, The Connecticut Law Tribune was unable to calculate the total costs of capital punishment but concluded that the "costs are staggering." State's attorney Mark Solak said he spent between 1,000 and 1,500 hours preparing one capital prosecution. The defense attorney in the case noted that if his client had been given an offer of life in prison without parole he would have accepted it "in a heartbeat." "The case," he said, "would have been over in 15 minutes. . . . No one would have spent a penny."

*In South Carolina, The Sun News reported that the bills for death penalty cases are "skyrocketing" because of a state supreme court ruling that attorneys in death penalty cases deserve reasonable fees. Before the decision, attorneys received no more than $2,500 for each death penalty case.

*It took six years to extradite Charles Ng from Canada to California mainly because Canada resisted the prospect of sending someone to a possible death sentence. Since coming to California, the case has cost Calaveras County $3.2 million, an amount which would have bankrupt the county except for the fact that the state agreed to reimburse the county until 1995. Now it looks as though the bailout will have to last until the year 2000, with millions more in expenses yet to come.

*In Harris County, Texas, there are 135 pending death penalty cases. State Judge Miron Love estimated that if the death penalty is assessed in just 20 percent of these cases, it will cost the taxpayers a minimum of $60 million. Judge Love, who oversees the county's courts, remarked: "We're running the county out of money."
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/599#sxn5

This little part, at the beginning, made the rest just supposition and conjecture:

"..................would likely be more expensive..............."
 
Rubbish. There would be no set price for exoneration, this is pretensive at best and directly deceptive at the worst.

There is no basis in reality to pretending that every case has an equal possibility of exoneration, or even that most do, and to waste funds testing every piece of evidence in perpetuity using public funds for every single case.

This provides a natural incentive for the innocent, and pays them back if they are exonerated, while not taking the same possibility of testing from those who would implicate themselves, they just wouldn't be reimbursed, it removes the incentive to push for more testing if they know they would implicate themselves.

Rubbish? Nonsense! Your second sentence is the "deception" since it is not what I said.
Re-imburse what to a man who has nothing in the first place? Does every innocent man have the money to pay for DNA tests and then, happily, be repaid when he's found innocent? Or are the testers billing only the guilty? I don't think a truly guilty prisoner would care much about not being billed should a test he requested only verify his guilt, his having taken a chance on a faulty test. Where would those funds come from, an ATM in the prison canteen taken from his bank account?
In your formula, is the request for DNA testing in itself prima facie evidence that the petitioning prisoner is innocent and the guilty need not apply?
I'll repeat, a man who has not had the benefit during trial of every tool available to him, then or now, should be entitled to the use that tool if his innocence is at stake. A guilty prisoner is imprisoned, as in this case, not "implicated". I couldn't care less if a guilty prisoner obtained a test and was proven guilty, thus costing the state, as long as any erroneously imprisoned innocent man was proven innocent by the test.
It is guilt or innocence I am concerned with, not $$$. I$n't that alway$ the difference in our politic$?
 
Rubbish. There would be no set price for exoneration, this is pretensive at best and directly deceptive at the worst.

There is no basis in reality to pretending that every case has an equal possibility of exoneration, or even that most do, and to waste funds testing every piece of evidence in perpetuity using public funds for every single case.

This provides a natural incentive for the innocent, and pays them back if they are exonerated, while not taking the same possibility of testing from those who would implicate themselves, they just wouldn't be reimbursed, it removes the incentive to push for more testing if they know they would implicate themselves.

Rubbish? Nonsense! Your second sentence is the "deception" since it is not what I said.
Re-imburse what to a man who has nothing in the first place? Does every innocent man have the money to pay for DNA tests and then, happily, be repaid when he's found innocent? Or are the testers billing only the guilty? I don't think a truly guilty prisoner would care much about being billed should a test he requested verify his guilt, his having taken a chance on a faulty test. Where would those funds come from, an ATM in the prison canteen taken from his bank account? I suspect that there isn't much cash among those in that situation, guilty or innocent.
In your formula, is the request for DNA testing in itself prima facie evidence that the petitioning prisoner is innocent and the guilty need not apply?
I'll repeat, a man who has not had the benefit during trial of every tool available to him, then or now, should be entitled to the use of that tool if his innocence is at stake. That suggests nothing "in perpetuity".
A guilty prisoner is imprisoned, as in this case, not "implicated". I couldn't care less if a guilty prisoner obtained a test and was proven guilty, thus costing the state, as long as any erroneously imprisoned innocent man was proven innocent by the test.
It is guilt or innocence I am concerned with, not $$$. I$n't that alway$ the difference in our politic$?
 
Last edited:
Rubbish? Nonsense! Your second sentence is the "deception" since it is not what I said.
Re-imburse what to a man who has nothing in the first place? Does every innocent man have the money to pay for DNA tests and then, happily, be repaid when he's found innocent? Or are the testers billing only the guilty? I don't think a truly guilty prisoner would care much about not being billed should a test he requested only verify his guilt, his having taken a chance on a faulty test. Where would those funds come from, an ATM in the prison canteen taken from his bank account? I suspect that there isn't much cash among those in that situation, guilty or innocent.
In your formula, is the request for DNA testing in itself prima facie evidence that the petitioning prisoner is innocent and the guilty need not apply?
I'll repeat, a man who has not had the benefit during trial of every tool available to him, then or now, should be entitled to the use that tool if his innocence is at stake. That suggests nothing "in perpetuity".
A guilty prisoner is imprisoned, as in this case, not "implicated". I couldn't care less if a guilty prisoner obtained a test and was proven guilty, thus costing the state, as long as any erroneously imprisoned innocent man was proven innocent by the test.
It is guilt or innocence I am concerned with, not $$$. I$n't that alway$ the difference in our politic$?

Yes$, dollar$ are alway$ an important thing to con$ider in any policy. The fact$ say that capital puni$hment is more expen$ive than pri$son $entence$. That alone $hould $uffice to put an end to the debate about whether or not capital puni$hment is moral or not.

Al$o, using dollar $ign$ in place of the letter 's' i$ fucking retarded.

This little part, at the beginning, made the rest just supposition and conjecture:

"..................would likely be more expensive..............."

Congrats. You just failed finance, accounting, business, and just about every subject in which cost projection is considered to be of importance...
 
Yes$, dollar$ are alway$ an important thing to con$ider in any policy. The fact$ say that capital puni$hment is more expen$ive than pri$son $entence$. That alone $hould $uffice to put an end to the debate about whether or not capital puni$hment is moral or not.

Al$o, using dollar $ign$ in place of the letter 's' i$ fucking retarded.



Congrats. You just failed finance, accounting, business, and just about every subject in which cost projection is considered to be of importance...

AWWWWWWW!! :cry:

Do you need a hug?? :hug:
 
No, there's still plenty of subjects that don't give a damn about cost-benefit analysis and financial projections that you can succeed in. Like my major, history!!

:woot:

But see; I can prove that I can save money on those sentenced to death, by the Court.
 
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