Honduras Defends Its Democracy

blackascoal said:
If his citizens voted to remove term limits, then he should stay in office as long as he's elected.

The military NEVER gets to decide.
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Are you really being Dixie Daft? The guy could not put the issue of term limits on the ballot. ONLY the legislature can and they refused. What part of this procedure don't you get?
 
Socrtease said:
it was NOT by legal means. He called the referendum when he is not constitutionally allowed to do so. The Supreme Court of Honduras ruled it as unconstitutional and ordered the military to not distribute election supplies. So the President, circumventing rule of law sought help from Hugo "anything to stay in power" Chavez to violate the rule of his own court. That is not the actions of a lawful president. I agree, they should not have deported him, they should have arrested him and placed him in jail, tried him for treason and then imprisoned him.
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Process matters. And, as I stated, its seems the military ignored the line of succession.
 
Damocles said:
Except you would have called it "kidnapping" that is pretty much what happened.
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Actually, i would have called it eviction.

You know, like when people can't pay their mortgages anymore they get evicted, not put on a plane and dumped in Costa Rica.
 
Yurt said:
no he did not, his referendum was illegal, his order to force the military to hand out pamphlets was illegal....that is why he fired the top general because he refused to carry out the illegal order
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TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, June 26 (UPI) -- Honduran President Manuel Zelaya's efforts to force a referendum on constitutional changes to give him a shot at re-election have won support from unions and farmers but pitted him against the courts and military and civilian powers, sparking a crisis in one of Latin America's poorest countries.

Zelaya on Friday refused to comply with a Supreme Court ruling to reinstate the country's armed forces chief, Gen. Romeo Vasquez, after firing him for refusing to comply with the president's plans.

Speaking to some 2,000 cheering supporters in the Honduran capital, Tegucigalpa, the populist president said the court was an instrument of the rich and powerful, its decision amounted to a coup and that he stood by his decision to fire the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

"We will not obey the Supreme Court," the president told them. "The court, which only imparts justice for the powerful, the rich and the bankers, only causes problems for democracy," Zelaya said.

"No one is going to stop Sunday's referendum," he told the cheering crowd. "If an army rebels against a president," he added, "then we are back to the era of the cavemen, back to the darkest chapters in Honduran history."

Zelaya was elected in 2006 and is limited by the constitution to a single four-year term.

In an effort to run in the next presidential election in November, the president scheduled an unofficial vote for Sunday to measure public support for lifting term limits.

But Congress considered the planned referendum unlawful and on Tuesday passed a law to block his plans.

Tension heightened the following day when the armed forces chief said the military would not deliver ballot boxes for the vote -- a role the army carries out -- because of the court's ruling.

Zelaya responded by immediately sacking the armed forces chief. Within hours Defense Minister Edmundo Orellana resigned along with the heads of the air force and navy.
http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats...-crisis-looms-in-Honduras/UPI-68911246020019/

It was a referendum, not law .. and, he's not in office illegally.
 
charver said:
Actually, i would have called it eviction.

You know, like when people can't pay their mortgages anymore they get evicted, not put on a plane and dumped in Costa Rica.
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I don't see why you think that deportation is so bad. He gets to live in a rather nice American Protectorate rather than a prison, where he likely should be.
 
Socrtease said:
The guy they ousted was acting contrary to democracy, but since he is a socialist you find that permissible. Any means necessary.
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How was he acting contrary to democracy? As far I as have heard he was arrested for pushing for a referendum. A referendum is quite democratic. It may be contrary to the Honduran Constitution, but it isn't anti-democratic by any means.
 
Socrtease said:
Are you really being Dixie Daft? The guy could not put the issue of term limits on the ballot. ONLY the legislature can and they refused. What part of this procedure don't you get?
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The part where the military steps in, ignores seccession and other legal means, and decides for itself to bring about its own conclusions.

There is no nation on earth that condones this .. because it's mindless to do so.
 
Damocles said:
I don't see why you think that deportation is so bad. He gets to live in a rather nice American Protectorate rather than a prison, where he likely should be.
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We all know a few Presidents who should be in prison but aren't.

Some people get all the breaks, eh?
 
blackascoal said:
The part where the military steps in, ignores seccession and other legal means, and decides for itself to bring about its own conclusions.

There is no nation on earth that condones this .. because it's mindless to do so.
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So, if on January 21 of this year Bush had refused to leave office, you would not have supported his removal from the office by force if necessary? He could have ordered the Marines, who report directly to the president, to surround the whitehouse and keep all others out. That would have been ok with you, or could a general decide to remove him by force if necessary because his orders were illegal? The referendum was illegal and unconstitutional. He was a rogue and should have been removed, tried and imprisoned. If this were the acts of a right winger like a Samosa or Pinochet, you would, rightly, scream your damn head off.
 
Socrtease said:
So, if on January 21 of this year Bush had refused to leave office, you would not have supported his removal from the office by force if necessary? He could have ordered the Marines, who report directly to the president, to surround the whitehouse and keep all others out. That would have been ok with you, or could a general decide to remove him by force if necessary because his orders were illegal? The referendum was illegal and unconstitutional. He was a rogue and should have been removed, tried and imprisoned. If this were the acts of a right winger like a Samosa or Pinochet, you would, rightly, scream your damn head off.
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The two situations are hardly analogous.

A more analogous (alhthough imperfect) situation would be Bush trying to run for a third term and holding a national referendum prior to the General Election to amend the Constitution to allow it and then having the Supreme Court declare that he is an idiot and should be arrested and then having the Marines storm the White House in the middle of the night and shipping him off to the Bahamas and installing Nancy Pelosi as President until the next election.

I'm guessing a lot of people would have a problem with that scenario.
 
Dungheap said:
The two situations are hardly analogous.

A more analogous (alhthough imperfect) situation would be Bush trying to run for a third term and holding a national referendum prior to the General Election to amend the Constitution to allow it and then having the Supreme Court declare that he is an idiot and should be arrested and then having the Marines storm the White House in the middle of the night and shipping him off to the Bahamas and installing Nancy Pelosi as President until the next election.

I'm guessing a lot of people would have a problem with that scenario.
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Actually I wouldn't have a problem with that scenario because the Speaker of the House is next in line to be president when the Prez and Veep are no longer capable. *shrug*
 
charver said:
No they didn't "simply remove him and let him go to an American protectorate" they kidnapped and deported him.
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they did not kidnap and deport him.

they arrested him at his 'palace', then did the most humane thing possible which is exile him to a foreign country. He's now been warned that any attempt to come back will result in imprisonment.
 
blackascoal said:
He attempted to amend, alter, change, modify their constitution by legal means .. no differently than amending the US Constitution.
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there is only one way to amend the US constitution and the president putting it to a referendum vote from the people is not it. It sounds like that's what it is for Honduras as well.

There was nothing legal in zelayas method.
 
Southern Man said:
Actually I wouldn't have a problem with that scenario because the Speaker of the House is next in line to be president when the Prez and Veep are no longer capable. *shrug*
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I agree that Dick Cheney isn't capable to hold public office, but I don't think our opinion of his qualifications would be sufficient reason to disregard the lines of succession in the Constitution.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
there is only one way to amend the US constitution and the president putting it to a referendum vote from the people is not it. It sounds like that's what it is for Honduras as well.

There was nothing legal in zelayas method.
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Hence, the results of the referendum would be meaningless. What's the problem?
 
SmarterThanYou said:
there is only one way to amend the US constitution and the president putting it to a referendum vote from the people is not it. It sounds like that's what it is for Honduras as well.

There was nothing legal in zelayas method.
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Irrespective of how you view the leaglity of Zelaya's referendum, the military's repsonse cannot be defended . and in fact, that response only demonstrates Zelaya's claim that the military and the courts are controlled by the rich and powerful.

Zelaya WILL be returned to his office AND this only strengthens his hand.
 
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