Honduras Defends Its Democracy

[SmarterthanYou]

How was he acting contrary to democracy? As far I as have heard he was arrested for pushing for a referendum. A referendum is quite democratic. It may be contrary to the Honduran Constitution, but it isn't anti-democratic by any means.

and when the legislature (the branch that actually makes laws) blocked that referendum with another law? thats anti-democratic?

 

[charver]

they did not kidnap and deport him.

they arrested him at his 'palace', then did the most humane thing possible which is exile him to a foreign country. He's now been warned that any attempt to come back will result in imprisonment.

Oh, well that's alright then.

That sounds nothing like kidnap and deportation.

 

[DamnYankee]

I agree that Dick Cheney isn't capable to hold public office, but I don't think our opinion of his qualifications would be sufficient reason to disregard the lines of succession in the Constitution.

Cheney was eminently capable of holding office for the full eight years of his terms and not a day longer, unless of course he ran for the office and was voted in. *shrug*

 

[SmarterthanYou]

The part where the military steps in, ignores seccession and other legal means, and decides for itself to bring about its own conclusions.

There is no nation on earth that condones this .. because it's mindless to do so.

thats how the governments all over the world work. the court ruled his actions as violations of the constitution, the congress removed his power, and the military carried out the orders of the remaining branchs of government. totally legit. That our own nation considers it a military coup is indicative of the mindlessness of our nations idiots.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, June 26 (UPI) -- Honduran President Manuel Zelaya's efforts to force a referendum on constitutional changes to give him a shot at re-election have won support from unions and farmers but pitted him against the courts and military and civilian powers, sparking a crisis in one of Latin America's poorest countries.

Zelaya on Friday refused to comply with a Supreme Court ruling to reinstate the country's armed forces chief, Gen. Romeo Vasquez, after firing him for refusing to comply with the president's plans.

Speaking to some 2,000 cheering supporters in the Honduran capital, Tegucigalpa, the populist president said the court was an instrument of the rich and powerful, its decision amounted to a coup and that he stood by his decision to fire the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

"We will not obey the Supreme Court," the president told them. "The court, which only imparts justice for the powerful, the rich and the bankers, only causes problems for democracy," Zelaya said.

"No one is going to stop Sunday's referendum," he told the cheering crowd. "If an army rebels against a president," he added, "then we are back to the era of the cavemen, back to the darkest chapters in Honduran history."

Zelaya was elected in 2006 and is limited by the constitution to a single four-year term.

In an effort to run in the next presidential election in November, the president scheduled an unofficial vote for Sunday to measure public support for lifting term limits.

But Congress considered the planned referendum unlawful and on Tuesday passed a law to block his plans.

Tension heightened the following day when the armed forces chief said the military would not deliver ballot boxes for the vote -- a role the army carries out -- because of the court's ruling.

Zelaya responded by immediately sacking the armed forces chief. Within hours Defense Minister Edmundo Orellana resigned along with the heads of the air force and navy.
http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats...-crisis-looms-in-Honduras/UPI-68911246020019/

It was a referendum, not law .. and, he's not in office illegally.

according to honduras law the referendum was illegal and his orders to the military illegal....zelaya's own cabinent and party members are against his illegal referendum...

i never said it was law...and the guy in office now is the legal successor....for dungheap as well...

the vice president resigned...thus he is NOT next in line

 

[SmarterthanYou]

The two situations are hardly analogous.

A more analogous (alhthough imperfect) situation would be Bush trying to run for a third term and holding a national referendum prior to the General Election to amend the Constitution to allow it and then having the Supreme Court declare that he is an idiot and should be arrested and then having the Marines storm the White House in the middle of the night and shipping him off to the Bahamas and installing Nancy Pelosi as President until the next election.

I'm guessing a lot of people would have a problem with that scenario.

why are you ignoring the Honduran congressional actions of all this?

 

[blackascoal]

So, if on January 21 of this year Bush had refused to leave office, you would not have supported his removal from the office by force if necessary? He could have ordered the Marines, who report directly to the president, to surround the whitehouse and keep all others out. That would have been ok with you, or could a general decide to remove him by force if necessary because his orders were illegal? The referendum was illegal and unconstitutional. He was a rogue and should have been removed, tried and imprisoned. If this were the acts of a right winger like a Samosa or Pinochet, you would, rightly, scream your damn head off.

How about you use a more like example ..

If before Bush left office he attempted to get a referendum passed that would eliminate term limits .. THUS REQUIRING HIM TO RUN AGAIN .. NO, I would not support the military rushing in to arrest and deport him then deciding for themselves who sholuld be president .. and neither would you.

Even in your scenario .. which is not what happened in Honduras .. I still would not be in support of the military deciding who should be president .. and neither would you.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Hence, the results of the referendum would be meaningless. What's the problem?

meaningless? had that referendum passed, by whatever means, you'd be sitting here screaming that the Honduran congress is ignoring the will of the people.

lets be honest here, you leftists don't give a damn about constitutions, only about the majority rule.

 

[blackascoal]

thats how the governments all over the world work. the court ruled his actions as violations of the constitution, the congress removed his power, and the military carried out the orders of the remaining branchs of government. totally legit. That our own nation considers it a military coup is indicative of the mindlessness of our nations idiots.

NO, it isn't .. which is why NO GOVERNMENT supports this.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

How about you use a more like example ..

If before Bush left office he attempted top get a referendum passed tht would eliminate term limits .. THUS REQUIRING HIM TO RUN AGAIN .. NO, I would not support the military rushing in to arrest and deport him then deciding for themselves who sholuld be president .. and neither would you.

Even in your scenario .. which is not what happened in Honduras .. I still would not be in support of the military deciding who should be president .. and neither would you.

BAC, the military of Honduras did not decide who should be president. they followed the orders of their remaining branch's of government, then the Honduran congress elected a short term president.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

NO, it isn't .. which is why NO GOVERNMENT supports this.

you've taken this 'one world order' of socialism to seriously, especially when it's not reality yet.

 

[blackascoal]

BAC, the military of Honduras did not decide who should be president. they followed the orders of their remaining branch's of government, then the Honduran congress elected a short term president.

THUS, the military by their actions decided who should be president .. and, I might add, a make-believe president they support.

What governments support this?

You say this is how all governments operate .. what governments support it.

 

[blackascoal]

you've taken this 'one world order' of socialism to seriously, especially when it's not reality yet.

Neither socialism nor "one world orde"r have any damn thing to do with this. Please stay on topic .. there will be plenty of opportunity to vent your unfounded fears later.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

THUS, the military by their actions decided who should be president .. and, I might add, a make-believe president they support.

how the hell can you seriously come to that conclusion? The military followed orders, they didn't decide this on their own.

What governments support this?

Honduras, most likely. That's really what matters. Our government should, but we all know that democrats and republicans piss on our constitution daily anyway.

You say this is how all governments operate .. what governments support it.

any government that actually supported a constitution would, that alone should tell you something about the freedom in our world. my bad, i forgot you despise freedom.

 

[blackascoal]

how the hell can you seriously come to that conclusion? The military followed orders, they didn't decide this on their own.

Honduras, most likely. That's really what matters. Our government should, but we all know that democrats and republicans piss on our constitution daily anyway.

any government that actually supported a constitution would, that alone should tell you something about the freedom in our world. my bad, i forgot you despise freedom.

In other words .. NO GOVERNMENT ON THE FACE OF PLANET EARTH SUPPORTS THIS .. just as I said.

case closed

You sure are in a rush to get in all the buzzwords .. "socialism", "one world order" .. and the silliest of all "freedom."

You should find a topic that fits your buzzwords.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

In other words .. NO GOVERNMENT ON THE FACE OF PLANET EARTH SUPPORTS THIS.

case closed

You sure are in a rush to get in all the buzzwords .. "socialism", "one world order" .. and the silliest of all "freedom."

You should find a topic that fits your buzzwords.

dude, what part of LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL do you not understand?

I don't give a damn if any other country supports this, though I'm especially dissapointed in ours not supporting it, but also not surprised because of the tyrants we have running this country and the fascists/socialists supporting them.

bottom line, fuck all the other countries. Honduran congress and courts followed the constitution. sounds like a country I could live in.

 

[blackascoal]

dude, what part of LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL do you not understand?

I don't give a damn if any other country supports this, though I'm especially dissapointed in ours not supporting it, but also not surprised because of the tyrants we have running this country and the fascists/socialists supporting them.

bottom line, fuck all the other countries. Honduran congress and courts followed the constitution. sounds like a country I could live in.

Neither legal nor constitutional are on your side of the argument.

You may not give a damn that NO COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF PLANET EARTH SUPPORTS THIS .. but you can bet your britches that the people behind this coup does give a damn .. and that damn will force them into compliance.

It also doesn't matter that you don't agree .. the outcome is inevitable and it will strengthen Zelaya's hand.

That is what's called "the bottom line."

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Neither legal nor constitutional are on your side of the argument.

you are wrong. plain and simple. The exiled president tried to violate the constitution of Honduras, was called to task on it, then actually DID violate it by contracting with another countries military to subvert the will of congress. He was legally removed from office by congress and the courts.

You may not give a damn that NO COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF PLANET EARTH SUPPORTS THIS .. but you can bet your britches that the people behind this coup does give a damn .. and that damn will force them into compliance.

doubtful, unless you support Obama sending US troops alongside Venezuelan troops to remove the sitting members of the honduran congress, a body elected by the people of that country, and then reseat a wanna be dictator.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

and THIS episode really shows us that liberals hate the rule of law. They would rather have someone who disregards constitutions installed as a socialist leader instead of a democratically elected legislative body remove said violator.

 

[blackascoal]

you are wrong. plain and simple. The exiled president tried to violate the constitution of Honduras, was called to task on it, then actually DID violate it by contracting with another countries military to subvert the will of congress. He was legally removed from office by congress and the courts.

doubtful, unless you support Obama sending US troops alongside Venezuelan troops to remove the sitting members of the honduran congress, a body elected by the people of that country, and then reseat a wanna be dictator.

If Obama sending in the troops is what force means to you, that's cool, but that isn't what I mean .. nor do I believe that any nation will need to send in troops. Honduras does not exist in a bubble and it is heavily reliant on other nations for its economic existence. How long do you think it will be before the people of Honduras forces the hand of the juanta if sanctions are put in place?

You taking this position is quite incredible. It's hardly a defensible one.

UN General Assembly slams military coup in Honduras

In an emergency meeting of the United Nations General Assembly on Monday, diplomats and regional groups came together to condemn the military coup in Honduras and called for the restoration of constitutional order.

UN General Assembly President Miguel D'Escoto addressed the meeting's opening by strongly condemning the "outrageous" army coup which deposed of Honduras President Manuel Zelaya in the early hours of Sunday morning.

"It is with a heavy heart and deep personal outrage that I open this plenary session to consider the coup d'tat that interrupted the democratic and constitutional rule of President Manuel Zelaya in the Republic of Honduras," he said.

D'Escoto noted that he had invited President Zelaya to address the assembly "as soon as possible and give us an updated report on events in his country."

As the first delegation to speak, Honduran UN Ambassador Jorge Arturo Reina called the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya "a tragic moment," adding that he was certain the military's actions would amount to "a transitional movement, a transitory one."

He emphasized that President Zelaya sought to strengthen democracy and urged the General Assembly to unanimously condemn the coup d'tat.

"It is a pity that coup d'tats have come again on the scene," he said. "It was story that we hoped had come to an end but, once again, forces that are opposed to the will of the people and democracy gain a new lease on life."

The Honduras congress voted to replace President Zelaya with Parliamentary Speaker Roberto Micheletti to serve out the rest of the term, which ends in January. Members of congress unanimously removed the president after stating they had received a letter of resignation -- a claim rejected by President Zelaya.

Stop right there. .. Do you believe Zelaya offered a letter of resignation?

--- continues

Speaking on behalf of the Rio Group -- an organization of all Latin American and the Caribbean countries -- Mexican UN Ambassador Claude Heller condemned the coup d'tat committed against the president and called for the restoration of democratic values. "The Rio Group rejects the use of armed force and the arbitrary detention of the head of the executive power who was forced to leave the country," he said. "The breech of constitutional order is unacceptable and inadmissible."

Speaking on behalf of the 27-nation European Union, the Czech Republic's UN Ambassador Martin Palous urged for the immediate release of all detained government representatives and underlined the importance of transparent and fair elections to be held on Nov. 29.

Several government officials are reported to have been detained, including Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas, who was later flown to Mexico on Monday, where she was welcomed by the government of Felipe Calderon.

Chilean UN Ambassador Heraldo Munoz, speaking on behalf of the Union of South American Nations, offered the fullest support to President Zelaya and said the union would only recognize a democratically elected government.

"This was a simple coup d'etat with no need of any ornament of explanation," he said.

Speaking on behalf of the 118 members of the Non-aligned Movement (NAM), Cuban UN Ambassador Abelardo Moreno strongly condemned the kidnapping of President Zelaya, adding that NAM " categorically rejects the breech of the democratic constitutional order that has taken place in Honduras as well as all violent actions against the people and the legitimate government."

Taking the podium, Nicaraguan UN Ambassador Rubiales de Chamorro, whose country received President Zelaya on Monday, emphasized that the Americas are united in their rejection of the coup d'tat.

Calling the military's actions "cowardly," Rubiales de Chamorro said no marshal law will be able to "quell the clamor of the Honduran people for liberty."

She also condemned the kidnapping of the foreign ambassadors to Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela, calling it a "flagrant act of aggression" against those countries.
http://world.globaltimes.cn/americas/2009-06/441258.html

NO NATION ON EARTH supports this .. which quite clearly refutes your thought that this is how all nations operate.

You can keep swimming upstream on this brother, but the outcome is a foregone conclusion that a blind man should be able to see.