Obama wants keep Bush policy on CIA briefings

you guys are pathetic....the title is from the sfgate...dailykos even has this up and is bashing obama....but oh no, its JUST yurt the right winger...

you guys are so full of yourself it is comical...

dungheap, feel free leave....if you can't handle that i showed you it wasn't the law and have to whine about it, then go away dude, come on...i wouldn't have thought you to wimp out that bad....

onceler, i am laughing, you guys make it out as if i "just made it up"...which is a complete lie....if this is not simply a continuation of bush policy, show me that every other president did exactly like bush and i will then say obama continued all the presidents tradition....

but to whine and whine instead of actually debating is pathetic
 
hey yurt...you whiny little bitch.... why did you get me banned for posting personal information if the information I posted was not personal?

liar:pke:
 
Gee, I was thinking that about you.

Hey, Tutu! I was waiting for your response on the other thread...you know, where you wondered how Obama could even look himself in the mirror now, after breaking his promise not to raise taxes so many times?

I was looking for an example. One example. I'm sure you'll hop right on that....
 
Hey, Tutu! I was waiting for your response on the other thread...you know, where you wondered how Obama could even look himself in the mirror now, after breaking his promise not to raise taxes so many times?

I was looking for an example. One example. I'm sure you'll hop right on that....

...21, 22 :)
 
It isn't even Bush policy. It's what the law requires and has required since, I believe, the intelligence committees were created.

yet in your thread you look down on obama for doing this....why is this? is it because you're wrong that the law requires it?
 
this is telling that dungheap is completely ignoring this and started his own thread talking about this....you made a claim and got called on it, so you run? i never imagined dungheap doing that, i am really baffled at his comments in this thread and unwillingness to debate the issues.
 
this is telling that dungheap is completely ignoring this and started his own thread talking about this....you made a claim and got called on it, so you run? i never imagined dungheap doing that, i am really baffled at his comments in this thread and unwillingness to debate the issues.


Jesus. You're such an ignorant shit. Here is what I said in response to your assertion that Obama wants to "keep Bush policy on CIA briefings:"


It isn't even Bush policy. It's what the law requires and has required since, I believe, the intelligence committees were created.

Later, I provided what the Obama position actual was with respect to the briefings on covert actions (not "CIA briefings" generally):

Report on Covert Actions (Section 321). The Administration strongly objects to section 321, which would replace the current “Gang of 8” notification procedures on covert activities. There is a long tradition spanning decades of comity between the branches regarding intelligence matters, and the Administration has emphasized the importance of providing timely and complete congressional notification, and using “Gang of 8” limitations only to meet extraordinary circumstances affecting the vital interests of the United States. Unfortunately, section 321 undermines this fundamental compact between the Congress and the President as embodied in Title V of the National Security Act regarding the reporting of sensitive intelligence matters – an arrangement that for decades has balanced congressional oversight responsibilities with the President’s responsibility to protect sensitive national security information. Section 321 would run afoul of tradition by restricting an important established means by which the President protects the most sensitive intelligence activities that are carried out in the Nation's vital national security interests. In addition, the section raises serious constitutional concerns by amending sections 501-503 of the National Security Act of 1947 in ways that would raise significant executive privilege concerns by purporting to require the disclosure of internal Executive branch legal advice and deliberations. Administrations of both political parties have long recognized the importance of protecting the confidentiality of the Executive Branch's legal advice and deliberations. If the final bill presented to the President contains this provision, the President's senior advisors would recommend a veto.

Naively, I though you might understand how a decades long practice provided for by law was could not conceivably be regarded as "Bush policy." Nevertheless, here we are.

I also quote for you the law that you kept asking for:

If the President determines that it is essential to limit access to the finding to meet extraordinary circumstances affecting vital interests of the United States, the finding may be reported to the chairmen and ranking minority members of the congressional intelligence committees, the Speaker and minority leader of the House of Representatives, the majority and minority leaders of the Senate, and such other member or members of the congressional leadership as may be included by the President.


And for good measure I gave you my personal opinion on the matter:

I understand full well that Congress wants to change it, and for good reason. I support the efforts to change this rule and for Congress generally to reassert its prerogatives as an institution. I hope the under the leadership of the Democratic Party the institution of Congress would work to take back much of the power that Congress has ceded to the Executive Branch over the years. It can start by passing the Intelligence Bill as it is and overriding any veto by Obama.

Yet, here we are, back to square one.
 
Yurt, give me a break. This is foolish.

ANY GIVEN PRESIDENT will carry on dozens of policies from their predecessor, because that's the way administrations operate, Democrat or Republican. It's like arguing that Obama wears a tie & suit, so he's just like Bush!

Fact is, on a great many vital issues of the day - foreign policy, energy, the environment, education, fiscal policy, healthcare, college tuition, aid to families: he is not JUST LIKE BUSH.

I know you'll keep finding things, to prove ol' Onceler wrong, but if anyone of serious intellect really tried to make an argument that Obama is JUST LIKE BUSH, they'd be laughed off the planet, and rightfully so.

The argument is not that Obama is "just like Bush" but that he is following some of Bush's worst policies .. many of which he campaigned against.

I'm betting you can't laugh that off the planet.
 
The argument is not that Obama is "just like Bush" but that he is following some of Bush's worst policies .. many of which he campaigned against.

I'm betting you can't laugh that off the planet.

We disagree vehemently on that, and on what consitute "Bush's worst policies."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on that, but on a host of issues that I hold dear, including energy policy, the environment, education, healthcare, tuition aid, the economy - Obama is not "just like Bush."
 
you guys are pathetic....the title is from the sfgate...dailykos even has this up and is bashing obama....but oh no, its JUST yurt the right winger...

you guys are so full of yourself it is comical...

dungheap, feel free leave....if you can't handle that i showed you it wasn't the law and have to whine about it, then go away dude, come on...i wouldn't have thought you to wimp out that bad....

onceler, i am laughing, you guys make it out as if i "just made it up"...which is a complete lie....if this is not simply a continuation of bush policy, show me that every other president did exactly like bush and i will then say obama continued all the presidents tradition....

but to whine and whine instead of actually debating is pathetic

I agree with Yurt on this.

It isn't his original thought that Obama is dancing on the dark side of this issue. There is plenty of opposition to this from the left .. just as there was about his decision to withold the CIA report on torture.

Seemingly, there is always an excuse when the shoe is on the other foot.
 
I agree with Yurt on this.

It isn't his original thought that Obama is dancing on the dark side of this issue. There is plenty of opposition to this from the left .. just as there was about his decision to withold the CIA report on torture.

Seemingly, there is always an excuse when the shoe is on the other foot.


I don't count a single person on this thread supporting Obama on this issue. Yurt's confusion is that this is somehow a continuation of "Bush policy" when the practice has existed for decades.
 
We disagree vehemently on that, and on what consitute "Bush's worst policies."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on that, but on a host of issues that I hold dear, including energy policy, the environment, education, healthcare, tuition aid, the economy - Obama is not "just like Bush."

You're back to the strawman my brother. My argument is not that Obama is Bush, but that he's following his horrendous footsteps on many issues.

You may not care about oversight of the CIA, but many on the left sure as hell do .. especially given its history of formenting terror and overthrowing governments we don't like.

Perhaps the Iranians have a point and once again the CIA has injected itself in Iranian affairs. How do you know they haven't if there is no real oversight?

We know for FACT that the CIA has injected itself in Latin American elections, including the attempted overthrow of Chavez.

You may not care about his unkept promise of transparency, but a great many on the left sure as hell do ...

Obama and transparency: judge for yourself

"My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government" -- Barack Obama, January 28, 2009

Promising "a new era of openness in our country," President Obama [said]: "Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency" -- CNN, January 21, 2009

"A democracy requires accountability, and accountability requires transparency. As Justice Louis Brandeis wrote, 'sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants.' In our democracy, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), which encourages accountability through transparency, is the most prominent expression of a profound national commitment to ensuring an open Government. At the heart of that commitment is the idea that accountability is in the interest of the Government and the citizenry alike. . . .

All agencies should adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure, in order to renew their commitment to the principles embodied in FOIA, and to usher in a new era of open Government" -- Barack Obama, January 21, 2009

* * * * *

Has Obama fulfilled those pledges and lived up to those commitments -- even remotely? Just examine the facts and judge for yourself:

February 9, New York Times:

In a closely watched case involving rendition and torture [Mohamed v. Jeppesen Data], a lawyer for the Obama administration seemed to surprise a panel of federal appeals judges on Monday by pressing ahead with an argument for preserving state secrets originally developed by the Bush administration.

February 21, Huffington Post:

The Obama administration, siding with former President George W. Bush, is trying to kill a lawsuit that seeks to recover what could be millions of missing White House e-mails.

February 27, Associated Press:

The Obama administration has lost its argument that a potential threat to national security should stop a lawsuit challenging the government's warrantless wiretapping program. . . . The Obama administration, like the Bush administration before it, claimed national security would be compromised if a lawsuit brought by the Oregon chapter of the charity, Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, was allowed to proceed.

April 7, The Atlantic:

The Obama Administration still wants to keep its secrets. Yesterday, the Justice Department [in a case brought against Bush officials for illegal spying] embraced the argument that the state secrets privilege . . . should shut down any litigation against the National Security Agency for its arguably illegal warrantless surveillance program.

April 28, New York Times:

A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a lawsuit brought by five men who say they were tortured as part of the Central Intelligence Agency’s “extraordinary rendition” program could proceed, dealing a blow to efforts by both the Bush and Obama administrations to claim sweeping executive secrecy powers.

May 12, Washington Times:

The Obama administration says it may curtail Anglo-American intelligence sharing if the British High Court discloses new details of the treatment of a former Guantanamo detainee. . . . In February, the British Foreign Office claimed that the U.S. government had threatened to reduce intelligence cooperation if details of the interrogations and treatment of Mr. Mohamed were disclosed.

May 14, Washington Post:

President Obama yesterday chose secrecy over disclosure, saying he will seek to block the court-ordered release of photographs depicting the abuse of detainees held by U.S. authorities abroad.

May 22, San Francisco Chronicle:

A federal judge on Friday threatened to severely sanction the Obama Administration for withholding a top secret document he ordered given to lawyers suing the government over its warrantless wiretapping program. . . . The National Security Agency has also refused the judge's previous orders to provide security clearances to two of the charity's lawyers so they can view the top secret document.

June 1, Washington Post Editorial page:

The [Graham-Lieberman] measure, supported by the White House and passed May 21 as an attachment to a Senate funding bill, would put beyond the reach of FOIA any photographs taken between Sept. 11, 2001, and Jan. 22, 2009 . . . [W]hat makes the administration's support for the photographic records act so regrettable [is that in] taking a step aimed at protecting the country's service members, Mr. Obama runs the risk of taking two steps back in his quest for more open government.

June 9, Washington Post:

The Obama administration objected yesterday to the release of certain Bush-era documents that detail the videotaped interrogations of CIA detainees at secret prisons, arguing to a federal judge that doing so would endanger national security and benefit al-Qaeda's recruitment efforts. In an affidavit, CIA Director Leon E. Panetta defended the classification of records describing the contents of the 92 videotapes, their destruction by the CIA in 2005 and what he called "sensitive operational information" about the interrogations.

June 12, Associated Press:

The Obama administration has decided to keep secret the locations of nearly four dozen coal ash storage sites that pose a threat to people living nearby. The Environmental Protection Agency classified the 44 sites as potential hazards to communities while investigating storage of coal ash waste after a spill at a Tennessee power plant in December.

June 16, McClatchy:

Defense Department officials are debating whether to ignore an earlier promise and squelch the release of an investigation into a U.S. airstrike last month, out of fear that its findings would further enrage the Afghan public, Pentagon officials told McClatchy Monday.

June 16, ABC News:

After being briefed today on President Obama’s firing last week of Gerald Walpin, Inspector General of the Corporation for National and Community Service, Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., said the president did not abide by the same law that he co-sponsored – and she wrote – about firing Inspectors General. . . . “The legislation which was passed last year requires that the president give a reason for the removal," [McCaskill said]. McCaskill, a key Obama ally, said that the president’s stated reason for the termination, “Loss of confidence’ is not a sufficient reason.”

June 17, Washington Post:

President Obama has embraced Bush administration justifications for denying public access to White House visitor logs even as advisers say they are reviewing the policy of keeping secret the official record of comings and goings.

Balanced against all of that, Obama complied with a court order directing the release of Bush-era OLC memos on torture; issued an Executive Order creating additional procedures before executive secrecy under FOIA could be asserted; and ordered his agency heads to interpret FOIA with a "presumption" in favor of disclosure. It should also be noted that -- as Think Progress documented yesterday -- Obama's position in denying access to visitor logs is a direct violation of his statements about the Bush administration's practices in doing the same, and the same is true for his use of the Bush-era version of the state secrets theory.

Finally, it's worth emphasizing that the above excerpts pertain only to transparency issues. None of this has anything to do with what The New York Times in May -- referring to Obama's Bush-replicating policies on detention, rendition, denial of habeas rights, military commission and the like -- described as "how he has backtracked, in substantial if often nuanced ways, from the approach to national security that he preached as a candidate, and even from his first days in the Oval Office." No matter how you look at it, this is quite a record.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/17/transparency/

This is from SALON

You may not care brother, but people are paying attention.
 
I don't count a single person on this thread supporting Obama on this issue. Yurt's confusion is that this is somehow a continuation of "Bush policy" when the practice has existed for decades.

From my perspective, it wouldn't matter if the bad policy has been a policy for 1200 years or was just put in place yesterday .. Obama promised transparency and to step away from bad Bush-era policies.

Yurt is not the one the left should be beating up .. Obama is.
 
I don't count a single person on this thread supporting Obama on this issue. Yurt's confusion is that this is somehow a continuation of "Bush policy" when the practice has existed for decades.

you said obama did not have choice in the matter, he was just following law, you initially defended him....or are you going to ever explain what your words meant?
 
you said obama did not have choice in the matter, he was just following law, you initially defended him....or are you going to ever explain what your words meant?

Oh, my lord.

Did you see DH's line by line response a few posts back? What more do you want?

My goodness...
 
well....i give you a chance to discuss and debate and you run around the board claiming my MO is gotcha moments....:rolleyes:

Yurt, I don't respond to a lot of your posts, because it's like talking to a brick wall. You never acknowledge when you are wrong or mistaken, and continue with the same line of reasoning even after it has been shown to you repeatedly to be false. This thread is an excellent example; DH could not have been more clear a few posts back, but you are still badgering him for how he "really" feels.

Post the list - cut & paste it & I will respond. I couldn't open the link.
 
Oh, my lord.

Did you see DH's line by line response a few posts back? What more do you want?

My goodness...

please show me where he said he no longer stands by the statement that obama was merely following the law...all he did was post the law and obama's reasoning, maybe i missed where he said that obama is not merely following the law, rather choosing to continue bush and other president's policies....

i've asked you for evidence that bush's policies were the same, you have yet to provide any...i want to give you your ""gotcha"" moment as you made a snide comment earlier about 'oh there goes yurt's admitting he is wrong' or whatever you said...

and BAC is right, and as i have pointed out, i didn't make this up despite your attempts to make it so
 
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