Honduras and the Debate on Constitutional Democracy

Epicurus

Reasonable
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_...10/honduras-and-constitutional-democracy.aspx

Honduras and Constitutional Democracy

David Fontana is associate professor of law at George Washington University.


Here in the United States, the removal of President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras has prompted disparate reactions from the political right and political left. Conservatives (fearing the influence of Hugo Chavez and his authoritarian brand of politics, with which Zelaya had aligned himself) have tended to side with the coup leaders. Liberals (fearing a return to the era of Latin American military coups) have tended to side with Zelaya.

But both sides are missing a layer of complexity, one that suggests the Honduras crisis isn't an easy case of heroes and villains. What is taking place in Honduras is actually a debate over an old and difficult question: Can a democratically enacted change to a constitution be itself unconstitutional?

The crisis started when Zelaya called for a vote to determine whether or not a convention should be held to amend the constitution--and allow him to serve another term. The problem was that Article 239 of the Honduras constitution clearly prohibits a president from serving more than one term and indicates that anyone who tries to amend Article 239 should be removed from office and disqualified from performing any public responsibilities for ten years.

So was Zelaya acting unconstitutionally? Different democratic traditions diverge considerably on this question. The American legal tradition would tend to look favorably on Zelaya's efforts. Article V of the U.S. constitution lays out the rules to be followed for constitutional amendments. It specifies only two limitations: Until 1808, no amendments could alter some of the constitutional provisions protecting slaveholders; and no amendment can deprive a state of its two seats in the Senate without the consent of that state. But apart from that, the U.S. constitution can be changed to require or permit just about anything, so long as you have the votes. This has been clearly established for roughly the past hundred years, if not longer. In the early twentieth century, the Supreme Court heard two cases raising challenges to the constitutionality of major amendments--the Eighteenth Amendment (Prohibition) and the Nineteenth Amendment (which granted women the right to vote). In neither case did the Supreme Court have any problem with the fact that these amendments created major substantive changes to the constitution: If an amendment could pass, the court seemed to say, it was by definition constitutional.

But this approach isn't shared by all democratic countries--or even by many state constitutions in the United States. In Germany, where the rise of the Nazis demonstrated how a determined group could exploit the democratic process to horrific ends, the post-war Basic Law--equivalent to a constitution--prohibits any amendments violating foundational norms like human dignity, regardless of how many votes such amendments might attract. In American state constitutions, foundational changes (constitutional "revisions" as opposed to less significant constitutional "amendments") must sometimes pass a higher bar than a simple popular vote in order to be enacted. This was the legal substance of the (unsuccessful) challenge to California's Proposition 8--with gay marriage supporters arguing, in effect, that Prop 8 was an unconstitutional constitutional amendment.

So where you come down on Honduras really depends on which view of constitutions you favor. If you favor the dominant American view, you would tend to side with Zelaya. True, the Honduras constitution prohibits amendments related to presidential terms, but this rule flies in the face of the American notion that a constitution should be amendable in just about any direction--and Zelaya was simply exercising his right to try and correct that. If you favor the German view, you would tend to side with the supreme court and the military. After all, the changes Zelaya was seeking to the constitution were foundational and revolutionary. And a constitution should be able to protect against certain kinds of constitutional changes.

There is an irony here. In the recent past, American political conservatives have (with some exceptions, such as in the area of gun rights) defended the prerogatives of democratic majorities in the face of supposed constitutional limitations (think of their opposition to Roe at the federal level or decisions legalizing gay marriage at the state level). By contrast, it has been political liberals (again, with some exceptions) who have defended the importance of anti-majoritarian devices like judicial review. In other words, in the inherent tension between liberalism and democracy that characterizes any free society, Republicans have erred more on the side of pure democracy, while Democrats have erred more on the side of liberalism and rights.

The Zelaya debate has flipped this dynamic. It is the group that tends to support majoritarianism domestically which is now opposing a democratically-elected president pushing democratically-enacted change; and it is the group that tends to support limits on majoritarianism which wants the reinstatement of a president deposed because of his commitment to majoritarianism. All of which leads to at least one clear conclusion: The search for easy heroes and villains in Honduras might be harder than anyone wants to believe.
 
There is an irony here. In the recent past, American political conservatives have (with some exceptions, such as in the area of gun rights) defended the prerogatives of democratic majorities in the face of supposed constitutional limitations (think of their opposition to Roe at the federal level or decisions legalizing gay marriage at the state level). By contrast, it has been political liberals (again, with some exceptions) who have defended the importance of anti-majoritarian devices like judicial review. In other words, in the inherent tension between liberalism and democracy that characterizes any free society, Republicans have erred more on the side of pure democracy, while Democrats have erred more on the side of liberalism and rights.

Not really. They both don't believe in majoritarinism 100%, nor in rights 100%. It's just that conservatives have been getting their way with their issues with the public for the past thirty years, and so they are obviously going to support a democratic solution in places where they think there should be no rights.
 
The problem was that Article 239 of the Honduras constitution clearly prohibits a president from serving more than one term and indicates that anyone who tries to amend Article 239 should be removed from office and disqualified from performing any public responsibilities for ten years.

That is a fascist constitution. No constitution can claim that it is beyond being changed. He was 100% legitimate in trying to make a new constitution. Imagine if Rhode Island had been forced to keep their old constitution in the 1840's that prohibited voting rights to the vast majority of the populace simply because it contained no process for amendment. Utterly absurd.
 
Half of the problem about people commenting on the Constitution of Honduras (on this board) has been the tendency to create some sort of equivalence with the US constitution.

The Constitution of Honduras, created under some military dictatorship back in the early 1980's and amended umpteen times is not, and never will be, equivalent to the US constitution.
 
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That is a fascist constitution. No constitution can claim that it is beyond being changed. He was 100% legitimate in trying to make a new constitution. Imagine if Rhode Island had been forced to keep their old constitution in the 1840's that prohibited voting rights to the vast majority of the populace simply because it contained no process for amendment. Utterly absurd.
He should have had somebody else put forward the idea so he could remain within constitutional boundaries. The constitution was plain, he definitely went beyond those boundaries.
 
That is a fascist constitution. No constitution can claim that it is beyond being changed. He was 100% legitimate in trying to make a new constitution. Imagine if Rhode Island had been forced to keep their old constitution in the 1840's that prohibited voting rights to the vast majority of the populace simply because it contained no process for amendment. Utterly absurd.


and you do realize that there is a LEGAL way to amend their constitution, zelaya chose the illegal and unconstitutional method....:pke:
 
But since Zelaya went through the system and was legally turned down....his trying to enlist the military to do an end-run past the SC ruling was in and of itself illegally and grounds for a move to impeach him. That the extreme reactions by all concerned is distasteful by American standards, it does speak respectfully of people not willing to play games will subterfuge is afoot.
 
Nice try epicurus, but I would much rather read something from an expert on latin America.

This guy’s biography page shows zero professional publications on anything pertaining to latin America. And he looks like he’s about 23 years old

I’m frankly sick and tired of reading white anglo dudes who have no experience with latin America telling me what to think about latin america. It’s virtually the equivalent of me asking a dentist for his professional opinion on brain surgery.

I’m having a hard time finding anything written about this by latin American experts, or actual latin Americans themselves.

What I have learned is that the Honduran constitution was promulgated by a rightwing military junta, and supposedly it has little bearing on political reality. Its doesn’t appear to be a true democratic document.

I understand many rightwingers were cheering the arrest of the president by military forces. I also think they were ecstatic about it for emotional reasons, not legal ones. The president was an ally of Chavez, and the righwing would probably cheer on anything that was perceived to be anti-chavez.

Unlike the evidently numerous Honduran constitutional scholars on this board, I haven’t jumped to any immediate conclusions. Although, based on precedent and history, I feel it is appalling for a latin American military to arrest and exile an elected leader. Using the military to arrest and exile leaders is an anathema to a functioning democracy. And unlike eastern Europe, where there was a populist groundswell to remove the existing governments, I never heard about any mass demonstration, or mass populist uprising expressing the opinion of the nation of Honduras at large, to have this guy arrested by military forces.
 
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_...10/honduras-and-constitutional-democracy.aspx

Honduras and Constitutional Democracy

David Fontana is associate professor of law at George Washington University.


Here in the United States, the removal of President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras has prompted disparate reactions from the political right and political left. Conservatives (fearing the influence of Hugo Chavez and his authoritarian brand of politics, with which Zelaya had aligned himself) have tended to side with the coup leaders. Liberals (fearing a return to the era of Latin American military coups) have tended to side with Zelaya.

But both sides are missing a layer of complexity, one that suggests the Honduras crisis isn't an easy case of heroes and villains. What is taking place in Honduras is actually a debate over an old and difficult question: Can a democratically enacted change to a constitution be itself unconstitutional?

The crisis started when Zelaya called for a vote to determine whether or not a convention should be held to amend the constitution--and allow him to serve another term. The problem was that Article 239 of the Honduras constitution clearly prohibits a president from serving more than one term and indicates that anyone who tries to amend Article 239 should be removed from office and disqualified from performing any public responsibilities for ten years.

So was Zelaya acting unconstitutionally? Different democratic traditions diverge considerably on this question. The American legal tradition would tend to look favorably on Zelaya's efforts. Article V of the U.S. constitution lays out the rules to be followed for constitutional amendments. It specifies only two limitations: Until 1808, no amendments could alter some of the constitutional provisions protecting slaveholders; and no amendment can deprive a state of its two seats in the Senate without the consent of that state. But apart from that, the U.S. constitution can be changed to require or permit just about anything, so long as you have the votes. This has been clearly established for roughly the past hundred years, if not longer. In the early twentieth century, the Supreme Court heard two cases raising challenges to the constitutionality of major amendments--the Eighteenth Amendment (Prohibition) and the Nineteenth Amendment (which granted women the right to vote). In neither case did the Supreme Court have any problem with the fact that these amendments created major substantive changes to the constitution: If an amendment could pass, the court seemed to say, it was by definition constitutional.

But this approach isn't shared by all democratic countries--or even by many state constitutions in the United States. In Germany, where the rise of the Nazis demonstrated how a determined group could exploit the democratic process to horrific ends, the post-war Basic Law--equivalent to a constitution--prohibits any amendments violating foundational norms like human dignity, regardless of how many votes such amendments might attract. In American state constitutions, foundational changes (constitutional "revisions" as opposed to less significant constitutional "amendments") must sometimes pass a higher bar than a simple popular vote in order to be enacted. This was the legal substance of the (unsuccessful) challenge to California's Proposition 8--with gay marriage supporters arguing, in effect, that Prop 8 was an unconstitutional constitutional amendment.

So where you come down on Honduras really depends on which view of constitutions you favor. If you favor the dominant American view, you would tend to side with Zelaya. True, the Honduras constitution prohibits amendments related to presidential terms, but this rule flies in the face of the American notion that a constitution should be amendable in just about any direction--and Zelaya was simply exercising his right to try and correct that. If you favor the German view, you would tend to side with the supreme court and the military. After all, the changes Zelaya was seeking to the constitution were foundational and revolutionary. And a constitution should be able to protect against certain kinds of constitutional changes.

There is an irony here. In the recent past, American political conservatives have (with some exceptions, such as in the area of gun rights) defended the prerogatives of democratic majorities in the face of supposed constitutional limitations (think of their opposition to Roe at the federal level or decisions legalizing gay marriage at the state level). By contrast, it has been political liberals (again, with some exceptions) who have defended the importance of anti-majoritarian devices like judicial review. In other words, in the inherent tension between liberalism and democracy that characterizes any free society, Republicans have erred more on the side of pure democracy, while Democrats have erred more on the side of liberalism and rights.

The Zelaya debate has flipped this dynamic. It is the group that tends to support majoritarianism domestically which is now opposing a democratically-elected president pushing democratically-enacted change; and it is the group that tends to support limits on majoritarianism which wants the reinstatement of a president deposed because of his commitment to majoritarianism. All of which leads to at least one clear conclusion: The search for easy heroes and villains in Honduras might be harder than anyone wants to believe.

Most excellent perspective. Well thought out.

However, there is still a missing piece of the puzzle that I would have liked for him to discuss. That missing piece is freedom. Not just regional perspectives of freedom, but actual fundamental freedom. Do citizens have the freedom to chart their own government and destiny? If they are chained to the thoughts of the past, that answer is no. They may enjoy varying levels of relative freedom, but if they cannot change, alter, and amend their own destiny, they are not truly free people.

Neither life nor society are static, thus neither should government be. The government under which you live should be as dynamic as its society. That is the genius of the framers.

But underneath the surface there is a larger revolution taking place.

A "people first" revolution is bubbling all over the world and is most evident throughout Latin America, but can also been seen in Iran, the far east .. and the United States.

In the end, history may write Ernesto "Che" Guevara as the Father of true global freedom and democracy.
 
Nice try epicurus, but I would much rather read something from an expert on latin America.

This guy’s biography page shows zero professional publications on anything pertaining to latin America. And he looks like he’s about 23 years old

I’m frankly sick and tired of reading white anglo dudes who have no experience with latin America telling me what to think about latin america. It’s virtually the equivalent of me asking a dentist for his professional opinion on brain surgery.

I’m having a hard time finding anything written about this by latin American experts, or actual latin Americans themselves.

What I have learned is that the Honduran constitution was promulgated by a rightwing military junta, and supposedly it has little bearing on political reality. Its doesn’t appear to be a true democratic document.

I understand many rightwingers were cheering the arrest of the president by military forces. I also think they were ecstatic about it for emotional reasons, not legal ones. The president was an ally of Chavez, and the righwing would probably cheer on anything that was perceived to be anti-chavez.

Unlike the evidently numerous Honduran constitutional scholars on this board, I haven’t jumped to any immediate conclusions. Although, based on precedent and history, I feel it is appalling for a latin American military to arrest and exile an elected leader. Using the military to arrest and exile leaders is an anathema to a functioning democracy. And unlike eastern Europe, where there was a populist groundswell to remove the existing governments, I never heard about any mass demonstration, or mass populist uprising expressing the opinion of the nation of Honduras at large, to have this guy arrested by military forces.

You are wise.
 
But since Zelaya went through the system and was legally turned down....his trying to enlist the military to do an end-run past the SC ruling was in and of itself illegally and grounds for a move to impeach him. That the extreme reactions by all concerned is distasteful by American standards, it does speak respectfully of people not willing to play games will subterfuge is afoot.

The Honduran government doesn't exist under American standards, doesn't have American society, doesn't have the benefit of American history.

The army reguarly distributes voting ballots but refused to do so in this case. By American standards, who is the Commander-in-Chief?

Here's the QUESTION in an OPINION POLL that has caused all the rancor ...

"Do you think that the November 2009 general elections should include a fourth ballot box in order to make a decision about the creation of a National Constitutional Assembly that would approve a new Constitution?" Voters can respond "Yes" or "No."

It doesn't give the president the right to change the constitution and it demands nothing other than a completely democratic process take place.

And again, by American standards "impeach" does not mean the military kidnapping the presdient and whisking him to another country.
 
He should have had somebody else put forward the idea so he could remain within constitutional boundaries. The constitution was plain, he definitely went beyond those boundaries.

A constitution that says this constitution cannot be changed.

That makes sense to you?

He was ASKING for citizen OPINION in a POLL.
 
The Honduran government doesn't exist under American standards, doesn't have American society, doesn't have the benefit of American history.

The army reguarly distributes voting ballots but refused to do so in this case. By American standards, who is the Commander-in-Chief?

Here's the QUESTION in an OPINION POLL that has caused all the rancor ...

"Do you think that the November 2009 general elections should include a fourth ballot box in order to make a decision about the creation of a National Constitutional Assembly that would approve a new Constitution?" Voters can respond "Yes" or "No."

It doesn't give the president the right to change the constitution and it demands nothing other than a completely democratic process take place.

And again, by American standards "impeach" does not mean the military kidnapping the presdient and whisking him to another country.


This is what I don't get about all the rightwing cheerleaders of the military coup.

I understand the supreme court ruled againt the president.


what I don't understand is the rightwing's response to the military coup. The rightwing appears to be contending that sending in miliary forces to kidnap and exile the elected president was the only possible way to resolve this.


Really? the ONLY possible way?
 
This is what I don't get about all the rightwing cheerleaders of the military coup.

I understand the supreme court ruled againt the president.


what I don't understand is the rightwing's response to the military coup. The rightwing appears to be contending that sending in miliary forces to kidnap and exile the elected president was the only possible way to resolve this.


Really? the ONLY possible way?

Absolutely.

There was a DEMOCRATIC way to remove the president which the right-wing both here and there ignored.
 
Absolutely.

There was a DEMOCRATIC way to remove the president which the right-wing both here and there ignored.


Like I said, rightwingers lept to their feet and cheered the miliary coup, not because they had any profound and deep knowlege of honduras, latin america, or acceptable democratic traditions.

They cheered as a knee jerk emotion response to the fact that a leftist ally of chavez was kidnapped and exiled.

Strictly emotional.


IMO
 
In the end, history may write Ernesto "Che" Guevara as the Father of true global freedom and democracy.

sorry BAC, but that's a crock of shit.

take, for example, the US constitution. It was written to ensure that the majority could not impede, infringe, or remove the rights of the minority as they had seen it done in England. There is, however, a way to amend the constitution and I believe there is also a way to amend the Honduran constitution, but it cannot be done with a simple majority and must me a overwhelming majority. It was done this way to prevent a radical change knee jerk response to some critical event.

the 'majoritarianism' that is spoken of in the article is being promoted by most liberals and socialists because they can't reach that supermajority.

It is unconstitutional and illegal.....for a very good reason.
 
Like I said, rightwingers lept to their feet and cheered the miliary coup, not because they had any profound and deep knowlege of honduras, latin america, or acceptable democratic traditions.

They cheered as a knee jerk emotion response to the fact that a leftist ally of chavez was kidnapped and exiled.

Strictly emotional.


IMO

As is most of what gets them excited. Strictly emotional.
 
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