Honduras and the Debate on Constitutional Democracy

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Nice try epicurus, but I would much rather read something from an expert on latin America.

This guy’s biography page shows zero professional publications on anything pertaining to latin America. And he looks like he’s about 23 years old

I’m frankly sick and tired of reading white anglo dudes who have no experience with latin America telling me what to think about latin america. It’s virtually the equivalent of me asking a dentist for his professional opinion on brain surgery.

I’m having a hard time finding anything written about this by latin American experts, or actual latin Americans themselves.

What I have learned is that the Honduran constitution was promulgated by a rightwing military junta, and supposedly it has little bearing on political reality. Its doesn’t appear to be a true democratic document.

I understand many rightwingers were cheering the arrest of the president by military forces. I also think they were ecstatic about it for emotional reasons, not legal ones. The president was an ally of Chavez, and the righwing would probably cheer on anything that was perceived to be anti-chavez.

Unlike the evidently numerous Honduran constitutional scholars on this board, I haven’t jumped to any immediate conclusions. Although, based on precedent and history, I feel it is appalling for a latin American military to arrest and exile an elected leader. Using the military to arrest and exile leaders is an anathema to a functioning democracy. And unlike eastern Europe, where there was a populist groundswell to remove the existing governments, I never heard about any mass demonstration, or mass populist uprising expressing the opinion of the nation of Honduras at large, to have this guy arrested by military forces.

oh the irony as you post repeatedly about what we should think about the situation

 

[Taichiliberal]

The Honduran government doesn't exist under American standards, doesn't have American society, doesn't have the benefit of American history.

Okay, that's a given.

The army reguarly distributes voting ballots but refused to do so in this case. By American standards, who is the Commander-in-Chief? But as you point out, "American standards" don't exist under the Honduran gov't.

Here's the QUESTION in an OPINION POLL that has caused all the rancor ...

"Do you think that the November 2009 general elections should include a fourth ballot box in order to make a decision about the creation of a National Constitutional Assembly that would approve a new Constitution?" Voters can respond "Yes" or "No."

It doesn't give the president the right to change the constitution and it demands nothing other than a completely democratic process take place.

No, but it does open the door for the changes that would allow limitless re-election campaigns by former Presidents...that's the real point of contention. Since the SC said that the "opinion poll" was unconstitutional, Zelaya's trying to bypass them was in effect illegal.

And again, by American standards "impeach" does not mean the military kidnapping the presdient and whisking him to another country.

Again, as you pointed out, "The Honduran government doesn't exist under American standards, doesn't have American society, doesn't have the benefit of American history."

 

[blackascoal]

sorry BAC, but that's a crock of shit.

take, for example, the US constitution. It was written to ensure that the majority could not impede, infringe, or remove the rights of the minority as they had seen it done in England. There is, however, a way to amend the constitution and I believe there is also a way to amend the Honduran constitution, but it cannot be done with a simple majority and must me a overwhelming majority. It was done this way to prevent a radical change knee jerk response to some critical event.

the 'majoritarianism' that is spoken of in the article is being promoted by most liberals and socialists because they can't reach that supermajority.

It is unconstitutional and illegal.....for a very good reason.

I respect your opinion brother, however, the freedom I'm talking about is "people first" freedom. The freedom we enjoy in America is top down freedom. The best interest of people are secondary to the interests of the system and that system is dominated by plutocrats. We exist in a pltuocracy.

"We the People" is secondary to the corporate will.

Our form of government, thus our vision of freedom as adopted by the Framers was not unique. The Framers adopted much of what they learned from Rome, and given Roman influence on their native land, England, this was no surprise .. sans the overbearing religious dominance of the government of course. Rome was considered the benchmark for all civilization

The plutocrats of today were the patricians of the Roman era. They are the aristocracy of our times. They dominate the affairs of state, provide military leadership in time of war, decide on their own when it is time of war, and monopolize knowledge of law and legal procedure.

Are you surprised that Roman Catholics dominate the Supreme Court .. and now OBama has chosen another one?

In many ways, we are Rome. At one time half the people in all the world lived and died under Roman rule.

Been to Rome lately?

We suffer from its same ills and the same things that led to its decline.

Freedom as granted by the aristocracy is not the freedom I speak of.

Socialism does not have to be sold my brother.

 

[blackascoal]

Again, as you pointed out, "The Honduran government doesn't exist under American standards, doesn't have American society, doesn't have the benefit of American history."

I do understand the context in which you frame your argument, but there is more to this than meets the eye. Any constitution, especially one formed by the military, that demands it cannot be changed is a flawed constitution and should be changed immediately.

The deeper battle is that between the corporate fed right-wing hardliners of the past and the wave of people first revolution that has swept across Latin America.

THAT, my wise brother, is the real battle going on.

 

[Minister of Truth]

I respect your opinion brother, however, the freedom I'm talking about is "people first" freedom. The freedom we enjoy in America is top down freedom. The best interest of people are secondary to the interests of the system and that system is dominated by plutocrats. We exist in a pltuocracy.

"We the People" is secondary to the corporate will.

Our form of government, thus our vision of freedom as adopted by the Framers was not unique. The Framers adopted much of what they learned from Rome, and given Roman influence on their native land, England, this was no surprise .. sans the overbearing religious dominance of the government of course. Rome was considered the benchmark for all civilization

The plutocrats of today were the patricians of the Roman era. They are the aristocracy of our times. They dominate the affairs of state, provide military leadership in time of war, decide on their own when it is time of war, and monopolize knowledge of law and legal procedure.

Are you surprised that Roman Catholics dominate the Supreme Court .. and now OBama has chosen another one?

In many ways, we are Rome. At one time half the people in all the world lived and died under Roman rule.

Been to Rome lately?

We suffer from its same ills and the same things that led to its decline.

Freedom as granted by the aristocracy is not the freedom I speak of.

Socialism does not have to be sold my brother.

Socialism only needs to be enforced, by all means necessary. And your praise of Che earlier ignores the fact that he was handed over to the Bolivian military by common farmers. Some people's revolutionary...

 

[Canceled2]

Socialism only needs to be enforced, by all means necessary. And your praise of Che earlier ignores the fact that he was handed over to the Bolivian military by common farmers. Some people's revolutionary...

Read the rest here

As U.S. founding father John Adams might have put it, Zelaya chose to have a government of men and not of laws.

Zelaya's fatal mistake was in organizing a de facto referendum to test the idea of allowing him a second term. Honduras's Constitution explicitly forbids holding referendums -- let alone an unsanctioned "popular consultation" -- to amend it and, more specifically, to modify the presidential term. Unsurprisingly, the president's idea met with resistance from Congress, nearly all political parties (including his own), the press, the business community, electoral authorities, and, crucially, the Supreme Court, which deemed the whole endeavor illegal.

Last week, when Zelaya ordered the armed forces to distribute the electoral material to carry out what he called an "opinion poll," the military commander refused to comply and was summarily dismissed (he was later reinstated by the Supreme Court). The president then cited the troubling history of military intervention in Honduran politics, a past that the country -- under more prudent governments -- had made great strides in leaving behind in the past two decades. He neglected to mention that the order he had issued was illegal.

 

[blackascoal]

Socialism only needs to be enforced, by all means necessary. And your praise of Che earlier ignores the fact that he was handed over to the Bolivian military by common farmers. Some people's revolutionary...

I don't have to sell you or anyone else on socialism. Neither you or anyone else wants to get rid of all the elements of socialism, ie; "public", in this country or the elements to come .. such as universal healthcare which all the rest of the industrialized world already enjoys.

Too bad the bailouts worked for the plutocrats, not the people, eh? Should have nationalized the banks before giving away all the people's money.

Che was captured and betrayed by Félix Rodríguez, a operative of the CIA Special Operations Division (SAD).

CIA man recounts Che Guevara's death
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7027619.stm

The Death of Che Guevara: Declassified

On October 9th, 1967, Ernesto "Che" Guevara was put to death by Bolivian soldiers, trained, equipped and guided by U.S. Green Beret and CIA operatives. His execution remains a historic and controversial event; and thirty years later, the circumstances of his guerrilla foray into Bolivia, his capture, killing, and burial are still the subject of intense public interest and discussion around the world.

As part of the thirtieth anniversary of the death of Che Guevara, the National Security Archive's Cuba Documentation Project is posting a selection of key CIA, State Department, and Pentagon documentation relating to Guevara and his death. This electronic documents book is compiled from declassified records obtained by the National Security Archive, and by authors of two new books on Guevara: Jorge Castañeda's Compañero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara (Knopf), and Henry Butterfield Ryan's The Fall of Che Guevara (Oxford University Press). The selected documents, presented in order of the events they depict, provide only a partial picture of U.S. intelligence and military assessments, reports and extensive operations to track and "destroy" Che Guevara's guerrillas in Bolivia; thousands of CIA and military records on Guevara remain classified. But they do offer significant and valuable information on the high-level U.S. interest in tracking his revolutionary activities, and U.S. and Bolivian actions leading up to his death.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/index.html#declass

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Again, as you pointed out, "The Honduran government doesn't exist under American standards, doesn't have American society, doesn't have the benefit of American history."

I do understand the context in which you frame your argument, but there is more to this than meets the eye. Any constitution, especially one formed by the military, that demands it cannot be changed is a flawed constitution and should be changed immediately.

The deeper battle is that between the corporate fed right-wing hardliners of the past and the wave of people first revolution that has swept across Latin America.

THAT, my wise brother, is the real battle going on.

Tell me about it! But when all is said and done, this "ruler for life" crap is OUT! PERIOD! Chavez was smart enough to read the handwriting on the wall, and took heed. Zelaya didn't take the hint.

Bottom line: if you're not willing to go full out war and wipe out the little fascist SOB's that you beat out in an election, then you're going to have to play by the rules....and play a damned better game than the opposition.