The Free Market for Health Care Works

[Timshel]

There is one field of health care where demand has exploded and prices have been relatively steady. Cosmetic surgery.

Why is that? It should be amusing to hear some of the ridiculous reasons the lefties will give but the true reason is obvious. Cosmetic surgery functions like a real market while health care does not. With cosmetic surgery the consumer/patient knows the price and shops accordingly.

 

[belme1201]

There is one field of health care where demand has exploded and prices have been relatively steady. Cosmetic surgery.

Why is that? It should be amusing to hear some of the ridiculous reasons the lefties will give but the true reason is obvious. Cosmetic surgery functions like a real market while health care does not. With cosmetic surgery the consumer/patient knows the price and shops accordingly.

.......and what insurance company bureaucrat is there to determine if a procedure is necessary and who will pay? What ream of papers will the Doctor be required to fill out to satisfy the requirements of a United Health, Aetna, or Blue Cross? Also, when was the last time you heard of an emergency room boob job or face lift?
I presume from your last sentence that you would agree with me that the insurance company component is a superfluous obstacle to efficient healthcare. Finally, are you trying to suggest that cosmetic surgery is now in a price range that all can afford?

 

[tinfoil]

blowme1201:

I presume from your last sentence that you would agree with me that the insurance company component is a superfluous obstacle to efficient healthcare.


LOL so why are you supporting mandating everyone have it?

 

[Timshel]

.......and what insurance company bureaucrat is there to determine if a procedure is necessary and who will pay? What ream of papers will the Doctor be required to fill out to satisfy the requirements of a United Health, Aetna, or Blue Cross? Also, when was the last time you heard of an emergency room boob job or face lift?
I presume from your last sentence that you would agree with me that the insurance company component is a superfluous obstacle to efficient healthcare.

Of course, insurance is a big part of the problem. But who foisted that on us?

 

[belme1201]

Of course, insurance is a big part of the problem. But who foisted that on us?

Damned if I know, but nothing's permanent.

 

[belme1201]

blowme1201:

I presume from your last sentence that you would agree with me that the insurance company component is a superfluous obstacle to efficient healthcare.


LOL so why are you supporting mandating everyone have it?

Not from insurance companies.
Get back in your room and do your homework!

 

[apple0154]

There is one field of health care where demand has exploded and prices have been relatively steady. Cosmetic surgery.

Why is that? It should be amusing to hear some of the ridiculous reasons the lefties will give but the true reason is obvious. Cosmetic surgery functions like a real market while health care does not. With cosmetic surgery the consumer/patient knows the price and shops accordingly.

The true reason is cosmetic clinics have to attract customers.

When was the last time you heard someone say, "Hey, the local hospital has a special on by-pass surgery. I always wanted one of those."

Maybe ambulances should carry brochures from different hospitals. While a person is experiencing cardiac arrest the technician can be reading the amenities each hospital offers.

Hospital "A" is more expensive but it's closer to public transportation so one usually receives more visitors. On the other hand hospital "B" does have a lush garden with tropical fish so that tends to attract visitors.

Mr. Smith? Mr. Smith? Which hospital would you prefer?......Damn, he died before choosing. Now where do we take him?

 

[uscitizen]

Yep market driven healthcare works for the healthcare industry. We will all be paying 3 out of every 5 dollars for healthcare within 10 years.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

"Sheesh, I'm having a heart attack. I think I'm going to go on Angie's list and figure out what doctor best specializes in this..."

"St. Mary's - the BEST prices on stints!"

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Free markets in healthcare is contradictory to the laws of common sense, basic morality, and economics.

 

[uscitizen]

Try and get a price quote for a medical procedure before getting it done.

Other than cosmetic as previously stated.

For free market to work, consumers need to have information to make an informed decision on.

 

[Timshel]

Try again. I am not arguing that one should shop emergencies, but it could easily be handled with something similar to road side assistance plans.

Also, emergency care is 3% of total health care costs. It does not explain the rapid increases in non-emergency care.

Try and get a price quote for a medical procedure before getting it done.

Other than cosmetic as previously stated.

Uhh yeah. That's what I'm saying. Why do you think that is? Because the provider does not need to offer a selling price to the patient. The patient does not care what the cost is. The provider only needs to know how much they can bill the insurer.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

There is one field of health care where demand has exploded and prices have been relatively steady. Cosmetic surgery.

Why is that? It should be amusing to hear some of the ridiculous reasons the lefties will give but the true reason is obvious. Cosmetic surgery functions like a real market while health care does not. With cosmetic surgery the consumer/patient knows the price and shops accordingly.

Really? Now please explain to me, How will you shop around when you have a large cell carcinoma? How will you shop around when you have a pnuemothorax? How will you shop around when you happen to be in anaphelectic shock? Please explain this to me? Please explain to me the wonders of the free market when you have a ectopic pregnancy?

In reality your marginalizing those who disagree with your free market ideogology as "Leftist" to cover your ignorance on how health care treatment works.

Health Care has not nor ever been a free market economy. Why do you think most hospitals are publicly funded?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Try again. I am not arguing that one should shop emergencies, but it could easily be handled with something similar to road side assistance plans.

Also, emergency care is 3% of total health care costs. It does not explain the rapid increases in non-emergency care.



Uhh yeah. That's what I'm saying. Why do you think that is? Because the provider does not need to offer a selling price to the patient. The patient does not care what the cost is. The provider only needs to know how much they can bill the insurer.

That may work for you but to be honest with you, I'd rather let the Doctor's and Nurses and Medical Technologist work that out. I have a sneaky suspician they'd do a better job then the wizards of wall street.

The function of the free market is to maximize profits for business. That's not exactly the goal of health care.

 

[Timshel]

The true reason is cosmetic clinics have to attract customers.

As do other doctors/providers. If they did not then they would have no reason for television ads, ads in the Yellow Pages or even a sign on their offices. They just don't attract customers based upon price because the customer/patient does not care about price.

When was the last time you heard someone say, "Hey, the local hospital has a special on by-pass surgery. I always wanted one of those."

I have seen commercials for heart care (older fellow riding a bicycle and has a new lease on life sorta message).

Mr. Smith? Mr. Smith? Which hospital would you prefer?......Damn, he died before choosing. Now where do we take him?

I addressed emergency care previously, but...

If he has prearranged for services with a mortician you will take him to where ever that is. Why is it so hard to imagine doing something similar in emergency health care cases?

You guys are attempting to focus on extremes which are a very small part of the overall health care cost. You are missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Timshel]

Really? Now please explain to me, How will you shop around when you have a large cell carcinoma? How will you shop around when you have a pnuemothorax? How will you shop around when you happen to be in anaphelectic shock? Please explain this to me? Please explain to me the wonders of the free market when you have a ectopic pregnancy?

Apparently, someone is shopping for cancer/pregnancy care since there are ads for just those types of care. They just don't shop based on price.

In reality your marginalizing those who disagree with your free market ideogology as "Leftist" to cover your ignorance on how health care treatment works.

I have explained this before but... I am not trying to marginalize anyone. Just trying to identify the general group. I do not like using the word liberal because that group is far from liberal, hence lefties. I guess I could say "those advocating for more government involvement in health care," but that requires a lot more typing.

Health Care has not nor ever been a free market economy. Why do you think most hospitals are publicly funded?

I do not imagine it ever being a completely free market economy. But there are things we could do to make it function more like a true market. Right now it is not even close to a free market yet those advocating more government involvement (happy?) lay all the blame on free markets.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

As do other doctors/providers. If they did not then they would have no reason for television ads, ads in the Yellow Pages or even a sign on their offices. They just don't attract customers based upon price because the customer/patient does not care about price.



I have seen commercials for heart care (older fellow riding a bicycle and has a new lease on life sorta message).



I addressed emergency care previously, but...

If he has prearranged for services with a mortician you will take him to where ever that is. Why is it so hard to imagine doing something similar in emergency health care cases?

You guys are attempting to focus on extremes which are a very small part of the overall health care cost. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Well RS that's often the case. There's all sorts of extremes in health care. You rarely go to a physician for a paper cut.

You're also not understanding the 3% figure your reading. That's for trauma related emergencies. Bypass surgery, cancer treatment, hip/knee replacement surgery, treatment for pnuemonia or infectious diseases, etc, are not considered emergency trauma. Hospitilization, ambulatory care, and pharmacueticals, most of which are not emergency related are probably 90% or more of all health care costs. How does one go shoping for these in the free market for these kind of conditions?

For example;

If you have Lupus, where will who shop for out patient treatment? The nearest local clinic or another facility that's a 4 hour drive away? Where will you shop for the limited drugs available? Regardless of whether you go to Rite-Aid or Wallgreens you're going to be buying expensive medications from Eli Lilly or such. Where's the free market competition there when they own the patent rights to those drugs and can charge what ever they wish?

The free market does many things wonderfully well and certain aspects of the free market certainly belong in health care but they don't always share the same goals and agendas.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I do not imagine it ever being a completely free market economy. But there are things we could do to make it function more like a true market. Right now it is not even close to a free market yet those advocating more government involvement (happy?) lay all the blame on free markets.

That's the problem RS. Health care will not nor can ever be a true market. You have the unique situation in health care in that certain laws of biology supercede economic theory. People will always get sick and injured and die. Demand for health care services will always out strip supply. Always. Does that mean we want a government run health care system? Hell no but if I have to choose between the government solely managing our health care system and Wall Street solely managing our health care system I would choose the former over the later. A WallStreet ran system would provide the best services in the world for a handfull of people and would bankrupt everyone else. That's the problem were seeing in the US and that's why people want reform. To many people find them selves in the situation where they lose all that they have worked for for all their lives, simply because they got sick!

The true solution is somewhere down the middle and that's the road we need to tread.

 

[Timshel]

Well RS that's often the case. There's all sorts of extremes in health care. You rarely go to a physician for a paper cut.

It's not often the case. Emergency care is 3% of costs.

You're also not understanding the 3% figure your reading. That's for trauma related emergencies. Bypass surgery, cancer treatment, hip/knee replacement surgery, treatment for pnuemonia or infectious diseases, etc, are not considered emergency trauma. Hospitilization, ambulatory care, and pharmacueticals, most of which are not emergency related are probably 90% or more of all health care costs. How does one go shoping for these in the free market for these kind of conditions?

As you would for other services.

For example;

If you have Lupus, where will who shop for out patient treatment? The nearest local clinic or another facility that's a 4 hour drive away?

I am sure you would balance convenience, cost and other factors just as you do with other services. What's the problem? The problem with what we have is cost does not enter into the decision.

Where will you shop for the limited drugs available? Regardless of whether you go to Rite-Aid or Wallgreens you're going to be buying expensive medications from Eli Lilly or such. Where's the free market competition there when they own the patent rights to those drugs and can charge what ever they wish?

That's mostly a different issue than who pays. Also, it is not necessarily a free market feature (i.e., patents are a legislative invention and some will argue a necessary protection of property rights, but that's debatable).

 

[Timshel]

That's the problem RS. Health care will not nor can ever be a true market.

It certainly could be, but it's not politically feasible and doubtfully ever will be. I don't want to go into it, because it would take a very long book to address all the issues.

We could make it more like a market which would do a lot to help with exploding costs.

You have the unique situation in health care in that certain laws of biology supercede economic theory. People will always get sick and injured and die. Demand for health care services will always out strip supply. Always.

The government's limits on supply don't help there. Again, that's somewhat of a tangent while I am primarily focusing here on who pays. But, why is it you can't buy insurance out of state? There are lot's of ill advised government policies for which I can at least see the good intent. But, this one, I can't imagine why anyone other than insurers thought that was a good idea.

Does that mean we want a government run health care system? Hell no but if I have to choose between the government solely managing our health care system and Wall Street solely managing our health care system I would choose the former over the later. A WallStreet ran system would provide the best services in the world for a handfull of people and would bankrupt everyone else. That's the problem were seeing in the US and that's why people want reform. To many people find them selves in the situation where they lose all that they have worked for for all their lives, simply because they got sick!

The true solution is somewhere down the middle and that's the road we need to tread.

I have never gone to see a doctor on Wall Street. Do they have good one's there?

Obviously, insurance (private or public) has to play a part but we should at least equalize all health care costs for tax purposes instead of promoting some, that have failed miserably, over others.

Yes, if you are rich and willing to pay for it you are going to get better care, just as you would get better services/goods in other areas. Under a heavily controlled government system the powerful and those connected to the powerful are going to receive better care. Why is that better? At least in the market you are the one paying.

I just had a thought. I wonder if a system where the patient paid for most care (maybe out of a fund that could pull or roll over into retirement funds, including ss) with a government paying for catastrophic coverage would work?