Michael Moore admits that his film is a strawman

Taichiliberal said:
You given no new insight or explanation...all you've done is repeat yourself. I've already addressed this erroneous statement of yours, so I don't have to repeat myself. Repetition does not a truism make.
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I don't need to. Moore does it for me by acknowledging that he used the strawman of corporatism to knock capitalism. Maybe, in the film he makes the distinction, but then his title is still far more a strawman than mine.

And again, corporatism is no more tied to the hip of capitalism, than corporatism is tied to hip of democracy. Corporatism is not the necessary result of either.
 
Looks like the word is getting around... his numbers from the wide release are dwindling fast. Sorry fatboy... no $100 million for you this time around.

As for the original post... fatboy talks about CEO pay being 40 times the average worker 20 years ago and now it is several hundred times their wages. I wonder.... what was the ratio of the money he made on Farenhype to that of the average crew member?
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
That doesn't make sense, as it is corporations that continually try to eradicate gov't oversite, which is suppose to insure true competition that this the mainstay of capitalism ( i.e., American anti-trust laws). Capitalism does not survive under monopolies and dynasties beyond a certain point.
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Threedee said:
Most lobbying for regulations in the US is spearheaded by large corporations, because they know they can afford to put up with them, while potential competitors cannot. That is classic corporatism right there.
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In addition to what you say here, corporate lobbyist are in Washington to also make sure that any regulation is toothless enough NOT to hamper their profit motives beyond a certain point. They love capitalism, so long as it's in their favor (monopolies).
 
RStringfield said:
I don't need to. Moore does it for me by acknowledging that he used the strawman of corporatism to knock capitalism. Maybe, in the film he makes the distinction, but then his title is still far more a strawman than mine.

And again, corporatism is no more tied to the hip of capitalism, than corporatism is tied to hip of democracy. Corporatism is not the necessary result of either.
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This is the THIRD version of the same old song by you....you don't address the points I've made, all you do is just repeat yourself ad nauseum. I suggest you read my exchanges with 3D, as he at least is willing to explore the discussion in more detail. If your next post is more of the same, then I won't bother responding.
 
Superfreak said:
Looks like the word is getting around... his numbers from the wide release are dwindling fast. Sorry fatboy... no $100 million for you this time around.

The only thing that is getting around is the wishful thinking and hype by neocons to trash Moore. As anyone who even lightly follows such things, success from movies released today are NOT gauged in about 2 weeks....you have to give it about a month...then you take into account the DVD, the overseas. Moore's movie may not be a box office smash like his previous films, but your condemnation is at best premature.


As for the original post... fatboy talks about CEO pay being 40 times the average worker 20 years ago and now it is several hundred times their wages. I wonder.... what was the ratio of the money he made on Farenhype to that of the average crew member?
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Stop wondering and do the research....Moore is NOT the head of a major corporation or industry. And if you can prove that he paid his staff and crew below standard industry wages, then you might have a case.

Oh, and Farenheit 911 was a huge success...and still sticking in the craw of bitter neocons who just can't handle the truth.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
That doesn't make sense, as it is corporations that continually try to eradicate gov't oversite, which is suppose to insure true competition that this the mainstay of capitalism ( i.e., American anti-trust laws). Capitalism does not survive under monopolies and dynasties beyond a certain point.
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RStringfield said:
You don't know what you are talking about. Adam Smith argued against the regulations that protected mercantilism, which is pretty much corporatism. Adam Smith understood that truly coercive monopolies require government regulation to limit competition.

What you say here doesn't change the FACT that you have corporate lobbyist who's sole purpose is to make sure that federal regulation is somewhat toothless to a degree....which is why you have the financial mess we are in today. The Anti-Trust laws were to do what you say in your last sentence....but the devil is in the details, and corporate lobbyist have made sure they can circumnavigate those laws to do their dirty work. They love capitalism...so long as it's in their favor and they have final say.

The great majority of regulations are not and were not enacted with any intent to protect capitalism or competition. (not true: as the Anti-Trust laws bear witness) FDR believed excessive competition was to blame for the depression and created many cartels through his regulatory policies.
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I would very much like to see quotes where FDR express such beliefs, and your logic as to these "cartel" creations that in effect would negate much of the "New Deal".

You forget that in addition to corporate shennanigans, you have a new breed of investment specialist, the hedge fund folk. They are not so much regulated as tightly as the usual Wall St. firms, and have added to the house of cards that our economy has become via speculation. Adams models in no way prophesized this.

Here's a little ditty as to what else Adams didn't see coming:

http://www.globalcorporategovernance.com/020_022.htm
 
Taichi, stop being a subhuman. The only way to do this is to blast your worthless head off. Come on Taichi, do the only thing you can do which would improve the world: remove your worthless less-than-human shell from it. You are not worthy of life. Just fucking die.
 
Damocles said:
Except it isn't. Corporatism is a political state acting as a corporation would, not a political state directing the corporation to produce specifically what the government wants them to (as happened in fascism.) Your fundamental disconnect is in the vast ignorance that you don't even know exists within the gaping holes of your knowledge.


You'll understand when you get older... :p
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Nice try, except Moore wasn't referring to corporatism in that sense. He was using the term as it is commonly used, which admittedly is technically a misuse, to distinguish the corporate side of capitalism, which is currently eating up the other side (call it the sole proprietor side, for lack of a better distinguishing term) and stealing our government from us. It is inescapably a part of capitalism, and one that bothered Jefferson considerably. The corporatism Moore is referring to is not only joined to capitalism at the hip, it is the inevitable product of laissez-faire capitalism, because an unregulated market has only one end point: monopoly.
 
Watermark said:
Taichi, stop being a subhuman. The only way to do this is to blast your worthless head off. Come on Taichi, do the only thing you can do which would improve the world: remove your worthless less-than-human shell from it. You are not worthy of life. Just fucking die.
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Translation: faced with the truth that his world view isn't as he thought, Water Stain lashes out like a typical, willfully ignorant neocon parrot.
 
zoombwaz said:
Nice try, except Moore wasn't referring to corporatism in that sense. He was using the term as it is commonly used, which admittedly is technically a misuse, to distinguish the corporate side of capitalism, which is currently eating up the other side (call it the sole proprietor side, for lack of a better distinguishing term) and stealing our government from us. It is inescapably a part of capitalism, and one that bothered Jefferson considerably. The corporatism Moore is referring to is not only joined to capitalism at the hip, it is the inevitable product of laissez-faire capitalism, because an unregulated market has only one end point: monopoly.
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Moore is doing no such thing. Moore is attempting to equate the two, just like Watermark did.

Of course, you can pretend to make some psychic connection with him rather than actually read his remarks and take him at his word, then apply some other standard. I've seen people be intellectually dishonest like that all the time. It isn't, however, the same thing.

Corporatism in America is based in the coin operated government. Companies who drop in enough coin even get money from the government, no bid contracts, etc. They write legislation and pay the legislators to put their names on it and pass it... It's corporatism all right, but there has not been a form of free market capitalism in this nation since before the Civil War.

Corporate welfare is disgusting, unnecessary, and contrary to free markets. Allowing companies to write legislation, even worse.
 
Moore is just another Hollyweird idiot who thinks he is way more intelligent then us peons...he got all fat and rich off the capitalist system, then turns around and rails on it...there are some stupid Americans who will fall for his crap, but most don't...but that won't stop the lamestream media and the Progressive-Democrats from using him as a propaganda tool...

wake up people..
 
I am more intelligent than you peons. Get to work dumb proles, or go take a long walk off a short peer. The contribution to America by stupid peons like you, meme, is negligible compared to us great ones. And you should be more greatful. The votes of Americans should be weighted towards who contributes more to society; so liberals should get 100 votes for every vote an independent gets, and an independent should get 1000 votes for every vote a conservative gets.
 
Watermark said:
I am more intelligent than you peons. Get to work dumb proles, or go take a long walk off a short peer. The contribution to America by stupid peons like you, meme, is negligible compared to us great ones. And you should be more greatful. The votes of Americans should be weighted towards who contributes more to society; so liberals should get 100 votes for every vote an independent gets, and an independent should get 1000 votes for every vote a conservative gets.
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And your head should be removed from your shoulders, stuck on a pike, and then thrown down an outhouse.
You arms and legs should be removed and then used to feed wild animals.
Your torso could then be cured in salt and then thrown in the ocean. :cof1:
 
Damocles said:
Moore is doing no such thing. Moore is attempting to equate the two, just like Watermark did.

Of course, you can pretend to make some psychic connection with him rather than actually read his remarks and take him at his word, then apply some other standard. I've seen people be intellectually dishonest like that all the time. It isn't, however, the same thing.

Corporatism in America is based in the coin operated government. Companies who drop in enough coin even get money from the government, no bid contracts, etc. They write legislation and pay the legislators to put their names on it and pass it... It's corporatism all right, but there has not been a form of free market capitalism in this nation since before the Civil War.

Corporate welfare is disgusting, unnecessary, and contrary to free markets. Allowing companies to write legislation, even worse.
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:good4u:
 
Damocles said:
Moore is doing no such thing. Moore is attempting to equate the two, just like Watermark did.

Of course, you can pretend to make some psychic connection with him rather than actually read his remarks and take him at his word, then apply some other standard. I've seen people be intellectually dishonest like that all the time. It isn't, however, the same thing.

Corporatism in America is based in the coin operated government. Companies who drop in enough coin even get money from the government, no bid contracts, etc. They write legislation and pay the legislators to put their names on it and pass it... It's corporatism all right, but there has not been a form of free market capitalism in this nation since before the Civil War.

Corporate welfare is disgusting, unnecessary, and contrary to free markets. Allowing companies to write legislation, even worse.
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Dumbass.
 
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