Darwin Presents Another Swift Boot To The Lifeless, Bloody Corpse Of The Idea Of God!

Which is a special pleading.

Any argument that essentially relies on making all evidence completely out of bounds is an argument that is useless and should be rejected at face value. Otherwise, I can claim that there's a dragon in my garage.
You can, and you can even try to convert believers. What you present is a logical fallacy. It is called "Appeal to Ridicule"...

The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument." This line of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
2. Therefore claim C is false.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because mocking a claim does not show that it is false. This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2! That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!"
This is "Appeal to Ridicule" because the mocking "claim" definitely doesn't change or prove that anything at all is false.

It could also be presented as a Relativist Fallacy... but it is more easily defined as the former.
 
true.....you have a 50% chance and the believer has a 50% chance.....but then, you're the one who's betting on doing what God said NOT to do.....

No a believer has a 50 percent change divided by the number of religious sects in the world, which becomes much, much smaller than my 50 percent.
 
you mean the "narrow sect" with 2.1 billion members?.....
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

And why would the amount of adherents have anything whatsoever to do with the probability that your god is the right one? That's an argumentum ad popularem. And, besides, that's about 4 billion people who DON'T believe in your God.

And the main problem with your argument is that your arguing that I should worship an unkown with no evidence for him based on the fact that in some random manifestation he rewards believers. Why should I assume anything about an unkown that has no evidence for it's existence? I can say anything about that unknown, and it is equally likely as any other thing said about him.

So, my imaginary god rewards atheists. If my god is right, then I'm in heaven and you're in hell AND I've wasted no time of my life worrying about his existence. If my god doesn't exist, then I'm better off because I haven't wasted my time thinking about something that doesn't existence, and you've lead a terrible and unfull existence worshipping something that doesn't exist. My wager > than yours, and equally as likely.
 
true.....you have a 50% chance and the believer has a 50% chance.....but then, you're the one who's betting on doing what God said NOT to do.....

No. The probability of the atheist rewarding God existing is equal to the probability of your God existing, but the probability of either does not add up to 50%. The probability of god existing is obviously not something you can calculate, although it is reasonable to assume it approaches an infinitesimal value. By far the highest probability is that there is no god.
 
No a believer has a 50 percent change divided by the number of religious sects in the world, which becomes much, much smaller than my 50 percent.

That's incorrect. You are committing the fallacy of automatically splitting the probability in half. The probability of ANY god existing is not 50%.

A believer has the probability of being rewarded with heaven equal to the probability of any God existing (a probability that approaches being infinitesimal) divided by the number of possible religious sects with God's that choose to reward believers (an amount that approaches infinity). So the probability of PMP's God rewarding him with heaven is an infinitesimal value divided by infinity. Good luck.
 
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And why would the amount of adherents have anything whatsoever to do with the probability that your god is the right one? That's an argumentum ad popularem. And, besides, that's about 4 billion people who DON'T believe in your God.

lol....it isn't an argument ad popularem since it wasn't used to persuade anyone, it's simply an a fact pointed out to show that your claim that it's a "narrow" sect was a brain fart......
 
No. The probability of the atheist rewarding God existing is equal to the probability of your God existing, but the probability of either does not add up to 50%. The probability of god existing is obviously not something you can calculate, although it is reasonable to assume it approaches an infinitesimal value. By far the highest probability is that there is no god.

That's incorrect. You are committing the fallacy of automatically splitting the probability in half. The probability of ANY god existing is not 50%.

A believer has the probability of being rewarded with heaven equal to the probability of any God existing (a probability that approaches being infinitesimal) divided by the number of possible religious sects with God's that choose to reward believers (an amount that approaches infinity). So the probability of PMP's God rewarding him with heaven is an infinitesimal value divided by infinity. Good luck.

um.....wrong

you are either right or the the believer is either right.....50/50

you may believe your "proof" gives you better odds, but in reality, in terms of whether you or the believer is right, you're wrong, it is 50/50.....either you're right or the believer is right

so simple it goes over your anti religious head
 
and you've lead a terrible and unfull existence
lol.....woe is me....I have suffered all my life under a terrible burden and didn't realize it.....what is it I need to fill myself, WM?......if you're my example, apparently shit.......
 
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No. The probability of the atheist rewarding God existing is equal to the probability of your God existing, but the probability of either does not add up to 50%. The probability of god existing is obviously not something you can calculate, although it is reasonable to assume it approaches an infinitesimal value. By far the highest probability is that there is no god.

lol....you suck at math, WM.....two choices, he does or he doesn't....and by far the highest probability, based on what I have seen the last couple months, is that you will make the wrong choice.....thus, by choosing the opposite of you, I have doubled my chances.....
 
um.....wrong

you are either right or the the believer is either right.....50/50

you may believe your "proof" gives you better odds, but in reality, in terms of whether you or the believer is right, you're wrong, it is 50/50.....either you're right or the believer is right

so simple it goes over your anti religious head

The probability of something being right is not 100 divided by the amount of possibilites. If I stated that in statistics I would get a swift boot out the door and an F.

It's weighted towards the evidence. Since there's no evidence for god, that makes the probability of ANY god existing (and that includes one that does not reward based on belief) approach being infinitesimal. And since said god is unkowable, that makes the probability of any manifestation of god existing equal to the probability of any other manifestation. So ceiling tile worship is equally as probable as Allah/the Christian god. And either one is equally infinitesimally probable.
 
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Hello Pascal's Wager.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticisms
Criticisms

Pascal's Wager has been the target of much criticism, starting in its own day. Voltaire, writing a generation after Pascal, rejected the wager as "indecent and childish... the interest I have to believe a thing is no proof that such a thing exists." [11] But Voltaire, like many other critics, misunderstood the Wager. Pascal did not offer the wager as a proof. [12] It is merely a conclusion to his arguments against certainty that relies on the notion that reason is untrustworthy and that discerning God's actual existence appears to be "a coin toss." If reason can be trusted on the question of God's existence, then the wager simply does not apply.
[edit] Argument from Inconsistent Revelations

Since there have been many religions throughout history, and therefore many potential gods, some assert that all of them need to be factored into the wager, in an argument known as the argument from inconsistent revelations. This would lead to a high probability of believing in the wrong god, which destroys the mathematical advantage Pascal claimed with his Wager. Denis Diderot, a contemporary of Voltaire, concisely expressed this opinion when asked about the wager, saying "an Imam could reason the same way".[13] J. L. Mackie notes that "the church within which alone salvation is to be found is not necessarily the Church of Rome, but perhaps that of the Anabaptists or the Mormons or the Muslim Sunnis or the worshipers of Kali or of Odin." [14]
Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism, paganism, Islam, and Judaism, and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.
Nonetheless, as this criticism has surfaced, apologists of his wager counter that, of the rival options, only the ones that award infinite happiness affect the Wager's dominance. They claim that neither Odin's nor Kali's finite, semi-blissful promise could contend with the infinite bliss offered by Jesus Christ, so they drop out of consideration.[15] Also, the infinite bliss the rival god offers has to be mutually exclusive. If Christ's promise of bliss can be attained concurrently with Jehovah's and Allah's (all three being identified as the God of Abraham), there is no conflict in the decision matrix in the case where the cost of believing in the wrong god is neutral (limbo/purgatory/spiritual death), although this would be countered with an infinite cost in the case where not believing in the correct god results in punishment (hell). [15]
And furthermore, ecumenical interpretations of the Wager[16] argue that it could even be suggested that believing in an anonymous god or a god by the wrong name, is acceptable so long as that god has the same essential characteristics (like the God of Aristotle). Proponents of this line of reasoning suggest that either all of the gods of history truly boil down to just a small set of "genuine options",[17] or that if the wager can simply bring one to believe in "generic theism" it has done its job.[18] Critics respond by stating that the wager must account for all potential gods and goddesses, without specifying whether they belong to a historical religion or not.[19]
[edit] God rewards belief

Pascal's Wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:

  1. a benevolent god exists and punishes or rewards according to one's belief, or
  2. a benevolent god does not exist.
God could either be malevolent or not reward belief. In this view, a benevolent god, by definition, would give priority to the belief of the individual in determining rewards or punishments, rather than basing rewards on the basis of the individual's actions, such as rewarding kindness, generosity, humility or sincerity. Perhaps instead God rewards honest attempted reasoning and indeed might punish blind or feigned faith.[20] Also see the Atheist's Wager as examples of assuming a different set of possibilities.
Richard Carrier expands this argument as such:
“ Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.[21] ” This would render the initial 4-box set inaccurate, because it does not include the possibility of a god who rewards honest unbelief or punishes dishonest belief. A revised set, would look like this:

God rewards theists God rewards atheists No God Belief +∞ (heaven) Undefined No result Disbelief Undefined +∞ (heaven) No result Apologists reply that hypotheses such as these lack the backing of tradition that genuine religions have, and thus should be disregarded (although see Argumentum ad populum). More precisely, these other hypotheses should be assigned zero (or perhaps infinitesimal) probability, so that they do not upset Pascal's expectation calculations. The debate then turns on what exactly rationality requires of one's probability assignments. [15]
[edit] Anti-Pascal wager

Richard Dawkins argues for an "anti-Pascal wager" in his book, The God Delusion. "Suppose we grant that there is indeed some small chance that God exists. Nevertheless, it could be said that you will lead a better, fuller life if you bet on his not existing, than if you bet on his existing and therefore squander your precious time on worshipping him, sacrificing to him, fighting and dying for him, etc." [22] Pascal addressed this criticism in his original account, as mentioned above.
[edit] Assumes that one can choose belief

The wager assumes that one can consciously decide. Critics argue that they cannot do this, and therefore Pascal's Wager could only ever be an argument for feigning belief in God. In addition, an omniscient God would presumably see through the deception. [23] Richard Dawkins writes "Would you bet on God's valuing dishonestly faked belief (or even honest belief) over honest skepticism?" However, Pascal explicitly addresses inability ("impuissance") to believe. If the Wager is valid, inability to believe is irrational, and therefore caused by the passions: "your inability to believe, because reason compels you to [believe] and yet you cannot, [comes] from your passions." Therefore, this inability can be overcome by diminishing the passions through the practice of belief: "Learn from those who were bound like you. . . . Follow the way by which they began: that is by doing everything as if they believed, by taking holy water, by having Masses said, etc. Naturally, even this will make you believe and will dull you ["vous abêtira"]."[24]


And amazingly, it's still your choice to make; using your free will. :good4u:
 
What if God rewards atheists? Why must God reward believers? When you are relying on an argument that's based on something with no evidence, it's foolish to assume you know he would reward believers. Therefore, I have an equal chance to heaven as an atheist than a believer has as a believer. In fact, I have a greater chance, because a God that rewards atheists rewards all atheists, while a God that rewards just believers only rewards believers in his narrow sect.

Why would you get a reward for not believing.
Kind of like saying you can still win the lottery; but you don't plan on ever buying any tickets. :good4u:
 
And why would the amount of adherents have anything whatsoever to do with the probability that your god is the right one? That's an argumentum ad popularem. And, besides, that's about 4 billion people who DON'T believe in your God.

And the main problem with your argument is that your arguing that I should worship an unkown with no evidence for him based on the fact that in some random manifestation he rewards believers. Why should I assume anything about an unkown that has no evidence for it's existence? I can say anything about that unknown, and it is equally likely as any other thing said about him.

So, my imaginary god rewards atheists. If my god is right, then I'm in heaven and you're in hell AND I've wasted no time of my life worrying about his existence. If my god doesn't exist, then I'm better off because I haven't wasted my time thinking about something that doesn't existence, and you've lead a terrible and unfull existence worshipping something that doesn't exist. My wager > than yours, and equally as likely.


But atheists don't believe in "gods". :cof1:
 
Why would you get a reward for not believing.

Why would you get a reward for believing? There is no evidence for god and this god would therefore be unknowable. Therefore, a god that rewards disbelief is equally as likely as one that rewards belief. By saying "why would he reward you for not believing?" you are merely applying your human emotions to God, and God is unknowable and does not necessarily have human emotions.

Kind of like saying you can still win the lottery; but you don't plan on ever buying any tickets. :good4u:

If it was a lottery that had no evidence of existing and therefore had unknowable conditions for winning, yes, not buying a ticket would be equally as probable to let you win it as creating your own ticket out of excess paper or whatever (obviously you can't buy a ticket to it because there's no evidence for it; if you could buy a ticket that would be clear evidence, and that's not consistent with the conditions of a God-lottery).
 
Why would you get a reward for believing? There is no evidence for god and this god would therefore be unknowable. Therefore, a god that rewards disbelief is equally as likely as one that rewards belief. By saying "why would he reward you for not believing?" you are merely applying your human emotions to God, and God is unknowable and does not necessarily have human emotions.



If it was a lottery that had no evidence of existing and therefore had unknowable conditions for winning, yes, not buying a ticket would be equally as probable to let you win it as creating your own ticket out of excess paper or whatever (obviously you can't buy a ticket to it because there's no evidence for it; if you could buy a ticket that would be clear evidence, and that's not consistent with the conditions of a God-lottery).

It's because the reward is the payoff for believing. :cof1:

Sorry; but your entire anology was at least amusing. :good4u:
 
Who is to say that evolution and a deity(ies) cannot co-exist? Maybe all the religious text only get a small portion of the story right....maybe all the scientist get only part of the equation.
 
You desereve a + REP.
No he doesn't. His knife cuts both ways. Just because he believes in god, does not prove there is a god. And proofs, in any form are not created to disprove shit, you cannot prove a negative. If you say there is a god then you must prove it, or do like most and accept it on faith. So long as your faith ends where my atheism begins.
 
No he doesn't. His knife cuts both ways. Just because he believes in god, does not prove there is a god. And proofs, in any form are not created to disprove shit, you cannot prove a negative. If you say there is a god then you must prove it, or do like most and accept it on faith. So long as your faith ends where my atheism begins.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

You can believe or not believe in what ever you wish and it doesn't bother me one iota.

As to your statement of where your belief begins, please show me where I've intruded on your belief. :good4u:
 
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