School's transgender policy trumped teacher's religious rights, US court rules

[AProudLefty]

My granddaughter will get called "Margaret" on the first day of school and "Maggie" afterward and this is pretty normal.

But when "William" wants to be "Phoebe" that's another matter.

The teacher is left with "you there" or "3rd clarinet".

How hard is it to call her "Phoebe"? Does it pain him so?

 

[AProudLefty]

Which example are you referring to?

It does not refer to the harm to the person, but if the person/student objects to saying the pledge on religious grounds, there is no harm to anybody or the public by exempting him. That does not make the law unconstitutional, but it means the person cannot be required to obey it.

If his religion believes you should never drive under 75 mph, there is potential harm if he is exempted from the speed limit.

The law must have a legitimate secular purpose.

From the article: Federal law only requires employers to accommodate workers' religious beliefs if it would not cause them an undue hardship.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

If there is no harm in exempting him from saying the pledge against his religious beliefs then the government cannot require him to do so. So, he has a good freedom of religion case against the school district.

Court cases have involved Amish refusing to send kids to school past 8th grade violating compulsory attendance laws, Amish paying into Social Security, A couple covering the "Live Free or Die" slogan on the NH license plate, students saying the pledge or standing during the pledge, etc. All these cases were won by the individual/group challenging the law.

Those cases have to do with general resistance based on religion, not a case where the teacher refusing to obey could cause harm to another person.

 

[Althea]

I think the healthcare thing is based on whether there is another person available to give care.

Some laws, like prohibiting abortion, are not necessarily based on religious beliefs. I can favor or oppose abortion completely separate from religion. I have seen some posters claim anti-abortion laws are forcing religion on others, but it is a secular law not necessarily related to religion. Atheists have opinions on abortion.

I think we're straying from the point that many are citing religion as their reason for denying rights. Like the OP

I don't believe people should seek abortions past a certain number of weeks. That doesn't mean I believe that abortion should be denied. Of course there are myriad reasons for peoples' views.

You and I began this dicussion over a comment about freedom of religion

 

[domer76]

If there is no harm in exempting him from saying the pledge against his religious beliefs then the government cannot require him to do so. So, he has a good freedom of religion case against the school district.

Court cases have involved Amish refusing to send kids to school past 8th grade violating compulsory attendance laws, Amish paying into Social Security, A couple covering the "Live Free or Die" slogan on the NH license plate, students saying the pledge or standing during the pledge, etc. All these cases were won by the individual/group challenging the law.

Perhaps. He may have to show where his religion applies when it comes to calling a person their desired name. Because they’re transgender probably doesn’t pass muster.

 

[Flash]

No. I meant the harm or "undue burden" on him. Since there is no "undue burden" on him, he has no case.

It does not refer to an undue burden on him but whether it is an undue burden on the employer to accommodate the teacher.

 

[domer76]

My granddaughter will get called "Margaret" on the first day of school and "Maggie" afterward and this is pretty normal.

But when "William" wants to be "Phoebe" that's another matter.

The teacher is left with "you there" or "3rd clarinet".

Why is it another matter? It’s merely another name. It’s not “you there” or “third clarinet”. It’s Phoebe. The teacher associates the name with the person just like any other kid.

 

[AProudLefty]

It does not refer to an undue burden on him but whether it is an undue burden on the employer to accommodate the teacher.

Okay then the burden on the school is to accommodate the students.

 

[Flash]

Okay then the burden on the school is to accommodate the students.

He has the constitutional right of freedom of religion. Students do not have a constitutional right to be called any certain name.

Of course, he is obligated to follow school policies. Like most our constitutional rights, it becomes a balancing act. The federal law you referred to applies to private employers while this case involves the Constitution because it is a governmental entity (school).

 

[AProudLefty]

He has the constitutional right of freedom of religion. Students do not have a constitutional right to be called any certain name.

Of course, he is obligated to follow school policies. Like most our constitutional rights, it becomes a balancing act. The federal law you referred to applies to private employers while this case involves the Constitution because it is a governmental entity (school).

So the teachers have the right to call students any names they want? And the students must remember those names and know who they refer to?

 

[Flash]

So the teachers have the right to call students any names they want? And the students must remember those names and know who they refer to?

And the teacher must remember 120 real names, chosen names, and pronouns. Becomes complicated.

No, the teacher must act like any other teacher. He just objects to calling trans students by different names. The court ruled the school policy does not violate his freedom of religion. We would probably know a lot more if we actually read the decision of the 7th Court of Appeals.

 

[AProudLefty]

And the teacher must remember 120 real names, chosen names, and pronouns. Becomes complicated.

Straw man.

It is not the same thing as teachers making up names or calling them by names they do not prefer to be called as.

No, the teacher must act like any other teacher. He just objects to calling trans students by different names. The court ruled the school policy does not violate his freedom of religion. We would probably know a lot more if we actually read the decision of the 7th Court of Appeals.

What, exactly, is the nature of this objection? How is it so hard to call them by their preferred names? It's human custom. It has always been that way. What, suddenly, made it any different?

 

[AProudLefty]

Imagine if the name is something like "Kerry"?

 

[Flash]

Straw man.

It is not the same thing as teachers making up names or calling them by names they do not prefer to be called as.

What, exactly, is the nature of this objection? How is it so hard to call them by their preferred names? It's human custom. It has always been that way. What, suddenly, made it any different?

It was a joke (the 120 names).

We don't know any more without reading the case. My guess is that he thinks his religion opposes transexuals and he would feel as if he was supporting it by using different names. It seems as much political as it is religious. People always think God supports their party.

It seems similar to the county clerk in KY that refused to issue same sex marriage licenses. She opposed gay marriage for religious reasons and did not want to be involved in supporting those activities.

Or, similar to the guy who didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding; however, that was different because it was based on a non-discrimination law and the "creative activities" issue.

 

[AProudLefty]

It was a joke (the 120 names).

We don't know any more without reading the case. My guess is that he thinks his religion opposes transexuals and he would feel as if he was supporting it by using different names. It seems as much political as it is religious. People always think God supports their party.

It seems similar to the county clerk in KY that refused to issue same sex marriage licenses. She opposed gay marriage for religious reasons and did not want to be involved in supporting those activities.

Or, similar to the guy who didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding; however, that was different because it was based on a non-discrimination law and the "creative activities" issue.

According to court records, John Kluge was hired in 2014 as the music and orchestra teacher for Brownsburg High School about 20 miles (32 kilometers) northwest of Indianapolis. In 2017, district officials began requiring the high school's teachers to use the names and pronouns listed in the school's official student database, where changes were permitted with letters from a student's parent and a doctor.

Kluge told the school's principal, Bret Daghe, on the first day of classes for the 2017 school year that he had a religious objection to using transgender students' names and pronouns. District officials agreed that Kluge could call students by their last name and would not be responsible for handing out orchestra clothing.

But at least two transgender students reported that Kluge's refusal to use their first names singled them out in front of peers and was hurtful. Other students, teachers and counselors also told officials that the issue made Kluge's classroom uncomfortable for many.

n Indiana federal judge ruled that Kluge's refusal to use transgender students' names and pronouns created an undue hardship on the district, which is responsible for educating all of its students.

The appeals court agreed, writing that district officials tried to accommodate Kluge's religious objection but realized that letting the music teacher use last names “resulted in students feeling disrespected, targeted, and dehumanized, and in disruptions to the learning environment.”

“Brownsburg has demonstrated as a matter of law that the requested accommodation worked an undue burden on the school’s educational mission by harming transgender students and negatively impacting the learning environment for transgender students, for other students in Kluge’s classes and in the school generally, and for faculty,” the opinion read.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/court-backs-teacher-firing-transgender-students-names-98450555

 

[leaningright]

If it ever comes to it I’ll just quit.

I will not promote a falsehood.

 

[AProudLefty]

If it ever comes to it I’ll just quit.

I will not promote a falsehood.

What falsehood?

 

[Celticguy]

Maybe then you can explain to us the difference between little David telling his teacher that he prefers to be called "Dave," and little Rose telling her teacher that she wants to be called "they"? I mean, other that your repulsive bigotry, that is.

They is not an appropriate pronoun to use to address an individual.
Would you say "hey they, can you hand me that notebook ?". Nor would you say "hey her, can you hand me that notebook ?".
Him/her, he/she are to refer to someone else who you may of may not know any personal preferences not=r would they know which you were using.

Its grammar, not repulsion.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

They is not an appropriate pronoun to use to address an individual.
Would you say "hey they, can you hand me that notebook ?". Nor would you say "hey her, can you hand me that notebook ?".
Him/her, he/she are to refer to someone else who you may of may not know any personal preferences not=r would they know which you were using.

Its grammar, not repulsion.

Just can't let it go even on Easter Sunday, can ya, son? It's clear you are not the Christian you claim to be, which makes you more like a dishonest hater.

 

[Lightbringer]

April 7 (Reuters) - An Indiana high school did not break the law by allegedly forcing a music teacher to quit after he refused on religious grounds to use transgender students' preferred names, a U.S. appeals court ruled on Friday.

The rights of the teacher, John Kluge, to exercise his religious beliefs were outweighed by the potential disruption that his conduct could have on the learning environment at Brownsburg High School in the Indianapolis suburbs, the Chicago-based 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said.[


Kluge said his Christian religious beliefs barred him from complying with a school policy requiring faculty to use students' preferred names and pronouns.

...


Federal law only requires employers to accommodate workers' religious beliefs if it would not cause them an undue hardship.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/schools-transgender-policy-trumped-teachers-religious-rights-us-court-rules-2023-04-07/

How hard is it to call them by their names? There is nothing in the Bible about it. What does he think will happen if he calls them by their names? Lightning strike?

That's not what is at issue here.