No assurances for families of 9/11 Victims

TuTu Monroe

A Realist
NOVEMBER 20, 2009, 10:24 P.M. ET
Eric Holder's Baffling KSM Decision
The attorney general's Senate testimony this week did nothing to reassure the families of 9/11's victims.

By DAVID BEAMER
On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary Committee met to question Attorney General Eric Holder about his decision to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four others in criminal courts rather than military tribunals. As the father of Todd Beamer, who died on United Airlines Flight 93, I was able to attend that hearing. What transpired caused me great concern and shook my confidence in our current administration.

The committee, chaired by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D., Vt.), displayed the division in our country not only visually—the Democrats were seated on the left and the Republicans on the right—but in every aspect of the proceedings. I expected that some members would agree with Mr. Holder and that others would have challenging questions about his decision. What I did not anticipate was the level of partisanship showed by the majority party. It seemed clear to me and other family members of victims that party loyalty is trumping concern for America's security interests.

In his opening remarks, Attorney General Holder acknowledged that these defendants could have been brought to trial in civilian court or before military tribunals. But he made the argument that trying them in our criminal courts would restore the integrity of our judicial system. He assured us that the trials would be quick, that the safety of New Yorkers would be paramount, that classified information would not be revealed, that the evidence was overwhelming, and that justice would be served.

Then he said that the USS Cole attackers would be tried in military courts since they attacked our military. So how does Mr. Holder categorize the Pentagon? Inexplicably, he offered up the body count of 9/11, the fact that civilian deaths outnumbered military ones, as a rationale for his decision.
Then the Republican members proceeded to ask Mr. Holder thoughtful questions. Some examples:

How can we be assured that these enemies will be found guilty? Given that criminal courts are now the presumed venue for those captured on the battlefield, will soldiers need to read them their rights at the time of capture? Since you wish to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis to the presumed civil venue, don't all those captured need to be read their rights and have the opportunity to remain silent? Won't this venue expose intelligence to our enemies? Can our classified information really be secured? Can we in fact predict how the judge will rule? If these people are brought into the country will they get additional rights under immigration law? What if they claim asylum?

The attorney general seemed bewildered in the face of these inquiries. Recurring themes in his responses included "I think," and "I can't imagine," and "I am not an expert in immigration."
Has our attorney general not considered these issues, or imagined the possible unintended consequences that will arise from his historic decision? It certainly seemed that way. If he had, he would have had better answers.

A second shocker: Mr. Holder said that he and his boss had not spoken in person about this decision. This matter only involves upholding the constitutional rights of Americans, establishing a precedent with battlefield impact, and the safety and security of our citizens in a time of war. What are the criteria to make something a priority with President Barack Obama? How can it be that this matter didn't make the cut?

The Democrats used much of their questioning time to heap praise upon Mr. Holder. They all repeated the same trope: We'll show the world that America can conduct these trials openly in criminal courts. And we'll be successful, even as we convey rights to the defendants that are not warranted.
Since when has "show the world" been a primary objective?
No thoughtful questions from the majority party regarding this decision were forthcoming. Their questions mostly addressed other matters. They discussed overcrowding in our prisons (too many drug criminals being sentenced), asked why none of the $500 million in appropriations have helped the rape-kit processing backlog, and inquired about when recommendations for additional staff would be presented for confirmation. Their lack of attention to the pressing matter at hand suggested apathy.

Sen. Chuck Schumer (D., N.Y.) did ask a question about how much the trials will cost. Clearly there will be expense incurred if this does go to trial in New York City. The early, and by no means complete, estimate is that it will cost $75 million for the first year. Mr. Schumer did not express any concern about the costs involved but only asked the attorney general for assurance that all would be covered by federal funds. This question was promptly and explicitly answered in the affirmative by Mr. Holder. After all, this is a rather modest amount by Washington standards.

Our enemies must be thrilled. We are willingly handing them an opportunity to inflict economic harm on New York City, keep their cause in the headlines, gather new intelligence, create new terror strategies, stimulate recruiting, celebrate new-found rights, and foist a fresh round of pain and suffering upon their victims.

This decision is September 11, the sequel. It is my hope that Mr. Holder will reconsider.

A final observation: During the proceedings a young lady, dutifully attentive, sat with a stack of paper about 15 inches high on her lap. The papers contained names, single spaced, of some 100,000 people who signed a letter in opposition to this decision. This young woman, Jill Regan, lost her dad, Donald J. Regan, FDNY of the Bronx, who died trying to save others on 9/11. Sen. Jeff Sessions (R., Al.) asked that those names be entered into the record at the end of the session. It was agreed, but by that time the chairmen and most of the Democrats were already gone. I grieved for her—and for all of us—anew.

Mr. Beamer is the father of Todd Beamer, who died on United Airlines Flight 93 on 9/11.

realclearpolitics.com
 
They all repeated the same trope: We'll show the world that America can conduct these trials openly in criminal courts. And we'll be successful, even as we convey rights to the defendants that are not warranted.
Since when has "show the world" been a primary objective?

Since Abu Ghraib. Since some of the prisoners held at Guantanamo were freed without any charges brought and no explanation given.

This is just one more example of having to clean up the mess caused by the last administration.

If our goal is to win the hearts and minds of the Muslin people, as almost everyone in authority has stated is necessary to win the war, then such has to happen.

After all the years in Afghanistan the people do not trust the Western powers. If they did the war would have been over a long time ago.

We always hear the Afghans are not ready/able to protect their country. What that really means is the Afghans are not willing to fight against the Taliban. It has nothing to do with their ability. We can train soldiers to fight in a matter of months if the soldier wants to learn. We've been in Afghanistan seven years.

The short answer is the Western powers have to go above and beyond what may seem "necessary" because of all the atrocities that have been documented. We've proved to the world how "unfair" we can be. Now we have to prove how fair we can be.

That said, I still lust after you.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

NOVEMBER 20, 2009, 10:24 P.M. ET
Eric Holder's Baffling KSM Decision
The attorney general's Senate testimony this week did nothing to reassure the families of 9/11's victims.

By DAVID BEAMER
On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary Committee met to question Attorney General Eric Holder about his decision to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four others in criminal courts rather than military tribunals. As the father of Todd Beamer, who died on United Airlines Flight 93, I was able to attend that hearing. What transpired caused me great concern and shook my confidence in our current administration.

The committee, chaired by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D., Vt.), displayed the division in our country not only visually—the Democrats were seated on the left and the Republicans on the right—but in every aspect of the proceedings. I expected that some members would agree with Mr. Holder and that others would have challenging questions about his decision. What I did not anticipate was the level of partisanship showed by the majority party. It seemed clear to me and other family members of victims that party loyalty is trumping concern for America's security interests.

In his opening remarks, Attorney General Holder acknowledged that these defendants could have been brought to trial in civilian court or before military tribunals. But he made the argument that trying them in our criminal courts would restore the integrity of our judicial system. He assured us that the trials would be quick, that the safety of New Yorkers would be paramount, that classified information would not be revealed, that the evidence was overwhelming, and that justice would be served.

Then he said that the USS Cole attackers would be tried in military courts since they attacked our military. So how does Mr. Holder categorize the Pentagon? Inexplicably, he offered up the body count of 9/11, the fact that civilian deaths outnumbered military ones, as a rationale for his decision.
Then the Republican members proceeded to ask Mr. Holder thoughtful questions. Some examples:

How can we be assured that these enemies will be found guilty? Given that criminal courts are now the presumed venue for those captured on the battlefield, will soldiers need to read them their rights at the time of capture? Since you wish to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis to the presumed civil venue, don't all those captured need to be read their rights and have the opportunity to remain silent? Won't this venue expose intelligence to our enemies? Can our classified information really be secured? Can we in fact predict how the judge will rule? If these people are brought into the country will they get additional rights under immigration law? What if they claim asylum?

The attorney general seemed bewildered in the face of these inquiries. Recurring themes in his responses included "I think," and "I can't imagine," and "I am not an expert in immigration."
Has our attorney general not considered these issues, or imagined the possible unintended consequences that will arise from his historic decision? It certainly seemed that way. If he had, he would have had better answers.

A second shocker: Mr. Holder said that he and his boss had not spoken in person about this decision. This matter only involves upholding the constitutional rights of Americans, establishing a precedent with battlefield impact, and the safety and security of our citizens in a time of war. What are the criteria to make something a priority with President Barack Obama? How can it be that this matter didn't make the cut?

The Democrats used much of their questioning time to heap praise upon Mr. Holder. They all repeated the same trope: We'll show the world that America can conduct these trials openly in criminal courts. And we'll be successful, even as we convey rights to the defendants that are not warranted.
Since when has "show the world" been a primary objective?
No thoughtful questions from the majority party regarding this decision were forthcoming. Their questions mostly addressed other matters. They discussed overcrowding in our prisons (too many drug criminals being sentenced), asked why none of the $500 million in appropriations have helped the rape-kit processing backlog, and inquired about when recommendations for additional staff would be presented for confirmation. Their lack of attention to the pressing matter at hand suggested apathy.

Sen. Chuck Schumer (D., N.Y.) did ask a question about how much the trials will cost. Clearly there will be expense incurred if this does go to trial in New York City. The early, and by no means complete, estimate is that it will cost $75 million for the first year. Mr. Schumer did not express any concern about the costs involved but only asked the attorney general for assurance that all would be covered by federal funds. This question was promptly and explicitly answered in the affirmative by Mr. Holder. After all, this is a rather modest amount by Washington standards.

Our enemies must be thrilled. We are willingly handing them an opportunity to inflict economic harm on New York City, keep their cause in the headlines, gather new intelligence, create new terror strategies, stimulate recruiting, celebrate new-found rights, and foist a fresh round of pain and suffering upon their victims.

This decision is September 11, the sequel. It is my hope that Mr. Holder will reconsider.

A final observation: During the proceedings a young lady, dutifully attentive, sat with a stack of paper about 15 inches high on her lap. The papers contained names, single spaced, of some 100,000 people who signed a letter in opposition to this decision. This young woman, Jill Regan, lost her dad, Donald J. Regan, FDNY of the Bronx, who died trying to save others on 9/11. Sen. Jeff Sessions (R., Al.) asked that those names be entered into the record at the end of the session. It was agreed, but by that time the chairmen and most of the Democrats were already gone. I grieved for her—and for all of us—anew.

Mr. Beamer is the father of Todd Beamer, who died on United Airlines Flight 93 on 9/11.

realclearpolitics.com
 
When all the BS and smoke is done, the historical fact remains that the US court system has already prosecuted, convicted and sentenced terrorists captured domestically and abroad. To date, no escapes, no terrorists attacks in retaliation on American soil...and NO WARNINGS FROM HOMELAND SECURITY THAT WOULD ALLUDE TO SUCH.

Period.

Also, all this hoop-la about security is a another neocon "get Obama" smokescreen. Remember folks, New York City held traditional New Year's celebration in Times Square in 2001. That was a little under 3 months after the 9/11 attacks. So if New York and the NSA, and the FBI and the CIA were confident enough to do that, why in the hell after 8 years and a shitload of additional security system (i.e., Homeland Security) is everyone suddenly peeing their pants?
 
Since Abu Ghraib. Since some of the prisoners held at Guantanamo were freed without any charges brought and no explanation given.

This is just one more example of having to clean up the mess caused by the last administration.

If our goal is to win the hearts and minds of the Muslin people, as almost everyone in authority has stated is necessary to win the war, then such has to happen.

After all the years in Afghanistan the people do not trust the Western powers. If they did the war would have been over a long time ago.

We always hear the Afghans are not ready/able to protect their country. What that really means is the Afghans are not willing to fight against the Taliban. It has nothing to do with their ability. We can train soldiers to fight in a matter of months if the soldier wants to learn. We've been in Afghanistan seven years.

The short answer is the Western powers have to go above and beyond what may seem "necessary" because of all the atrocities that have been documented. We've proved to the world how "unfair" we can be. Now we have to prove how fair we can be.

That said, I still lust after you.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The trial will be a three-ring circus. The king-pin killer has already said he wants to die a martyr. Even the defense attorney said it would be a circus. I think the families of the victims should have something to say about it. This is nothing but a political move.

I still have lust after you.
 
The trial will be a three-ring circus. The king-pin killer has already said he wants to die a martyr. Even the defense attorney said it would be a circus. I think the families of the victims should have something to say about it. This is nothing but a political move.

I still have lust after you.

If we look at the positive aspects we might get to hear what our enemies really think and believe. What really drives them? What motivates such individuals? What factors contributed to their way of thinking?

Is it strictly religion? Does poverty play a part? Does their country constantly being occupied play a part? Do foreigners interfering in their tribal wars play a part?

In the interest of National Security and citizens having the resolve to fight them is it not beneficial to hear what they have to say regardless of how insane it may sound to us?

I believe it is.

And while we're on the topic of drives and motivations and, perhaps, a touch of insanity do we not want to know those things as they pertain to lust? :D
 
Where does it say that any of these killers were poverty stricken? They want to die and I say let them live to rot in prison.

click here

If we look at the positive aspects we might get to hear what our enemies really think and believe. What really drives them? What motivates such individuals? What factors contributed to their way of thinking?

Is it strictly religion? Does poverty play a part? Does their country constantly being occupied play a part? Do foreigners interfering in their tribal wars play a part?

In the interest of National Security and citizens having the resolve to fight them is it not beneficial to hear what they have to say regardless of how insane it may sound to us?

I believe it is.

And while we're on the topic of drives and motivations and, perhaps, a touch of insanity do we not want to know those things as they pertain to lust? :D
 
Where does it say that any of these killers were poverty stricken? They want to die and I say let them live to rot in prison.

click here

I read the article.

First, the idea of a jury finding them innocent. Usually when a crime has had excessive exposure, of which the destruction of the towers certainty qualify, the defendants are moved to another locale so an impartial jury may be assembled. With the case taking place where the crime was committed the odds are the defendants are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

The second point I'd like to address is "And it goes without saying these defendants will try to use our open justice system as a platform to spew their warped sense of how the world should be."

That's good. That's precisely what we, the public, need to know. What do they think? What do they believe? If anything, it will put an end to one of the debates concerning the war.

Do we not want to know our enemy? Do we not want to know why they try to kill us? What better source of information than out of the mouth of the person(s) who did kill our fellow human beings?

Death to the capitalist pigs! Death to the terrorists! Both sides claiming the other is trying to change their lives. That's about the extent of knowledge the average person has.

How can it be anything but beneficial to hear what they have to say? The "crazier" they are the more support and determination we will have to stop them.

As many have said this is a long, long process referring to the war on terror. An open trial will give us the opportunity to document the reasons and thoughts behind our enemy. Let us all try to fully understand what could be a fight that lasts a generation or longer.

I, like most people, have watched the news, read the papers, listened to commentators, googled aspects of the war but still lack information on the thoughts or reasoning behind the terrorists. The only thing that comes to mind is the terrorists telling the western powers to get out of their country.

While I've seen and heard people say the terrorists want to convert us to their religion I have never heard a terrorist say that. Perhaps I missed it. I've never seen or heard tapes of Osama bin Laden saying all he wants is for us to become Muslims.

If this is going to be our generation's war and if the war is expected to last a generation then let's try and get all the information we can.

Maybe it's just me but I want to know why someone wants to kill me. I don't want second hand information. I don't want hearsay. I don't want opinions and I definitely don't want commentary from people who make money from war by way of selling weapons! I want to hear it from their own lips.

And while we're on the topic of lips I.......oops. Almost forgot. This is a political board. :whome::chesh:
 
They have admitted that they are guilty of murder and joke about it. That's enough for me and I don't care what excuses they might have. Their attorney said their intent is to make a mockery of the US and laugh about it. This president and Holder have rocks in their heads.

If we look at the positive aspects we might get to hear what our enemies really think and believe. What really drives them? What motivates such individuals? What factors contributed to their way of thinking?

Is it strictly religion? Does poverty play a part? Does their country constantly being occupied play a part? Do foreigners interfering in their tribal wars play a part?

In the interest of National Security and citizens having the resolve to fight them is it not beneficial to hear what they have to say regardless of how insane it may sound to us?

I believe it is.

And while we're on the topic of drives and motivations and, perhaps, a touch of insanity do we not want to know those things as they pertain to lust? :D
 
They have admitted that they are guilty of murder and joke about it. That's enough for me and I don't care what excuses they might have. Their attorney said their intent is to make a mockery of the US and laugh about it. This president and Holder have rocks in their heads.

If that's what occurs then all it will accomplish is more countries will side with the US. Let the world see how whacked out they are. How can the rantings of a lunatic be anything other than a benefit to the US?

The top news stories were always about innocent people being imprisoned. Family men. Taxi drivers. Innocent "children" (under age combatants).

We'd see pictures of peaceful men praying in one clip and similar men being threatened by dogs or mock electrocutions in another news bite. When have they shown a video of the prisoners being violent or doing terrible things?

Let the world see exactly what those men are like. Let's listen to what they have to say. Let's see how they act.

There is a very good chance if we all witness the same thing we'll come away with similar conclusions and isn't that what's needed today regarding the wars?

We have to do something about the lies and deceptions and confusion regarding the wars. What better persons than the ones responsible for 911?

More troops. Less troops. Pull out. Stay there. What the hell is going on?

Anything that sheds some light on the wars should be welcomed. The leaders, the top people involved, can't even agree. Maybe it's time the average citizen got involved......Hey, there's a novel idea!

And you're still cute. ;)
 
NOVEMBER 20, 2009, 10:24 P.M. ET
Eric Holder's Baffling KSM Decision
The attorney general's Senate testimony this week did nothing to reassure the families of 9/11's victims.

By DAVID BEAMER
On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary Committee met to question Attorney General Eric Holder about his decision to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four others in criminal courts rather than military tribunals. As the father of Todd Beamer, who died on United Airlines Flight 93, I was able to attend that hearing. What transpired caused me great concern and shook my confidence in our current administration.

<snip>

So Toots, in the black and white RW universe, which philosophy are you all going to embrace?

"The U.S. is the most powerful country in the world and we cannot, will not be defeated by any terrorist on the face of the earth."

Or alternately:

"The U.S. is such a weak country that we can't try the terrorists in NYC because ' we are handing them an opportunity to inflict economic harm on New York City, keep their cause in the headlines, gather new intelligence, create new terror strategies, stimulate recruiting, celebrate new-found rights, and foist a fresh round of pain and suffering upon their victims.'"

You can't have it both ways.

Also, you should be applauding this decision. The man you hate said about KSM "when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him."

Shades of the old Russian kangaroo courts. Stalin would be proud.

We have to obey the rule of law. I know you guys prefer frontier justice and would rather have KSM hanged at high noon in Times Square but that's not what this country is about.

We're supposed to be better than that.
 
When all the BS and smoke is done, the historical fact remains that the US court system has already prosecuted, convicted and sentenced terrorists captured domestically and abroad. To date, no escapes, no terrorists attacks in retaliation on American soil...and NO WARNINGS FROM HOMELAND SECURITY THAT WOULD ALLUDE TO SUCH.

Period.

Also, all this hoop-la about security is a another neocon "get Obama" smokescreen. Remember folks, New York City held traditional New Year's celebration in Times Square in 2001. That was a little under 3 months after the 9/11 attacks. So if New York and the NSA, and the FBI and the CIA were confident enough to do that, why in the hell after 8 years and a shitload of additional security system (i.e., Homeland Security) is everyone suddenly peeing their pants?

IMO it's a pre-emptive strike before all the testimony that's going to come out, including the torture we inflicted to get confessions. Get the public stirred up with hate and fear so our own bad actions will slip in under the radar.
 
IMO it's a pre-emptive strike before all the testimony that's going to come out, including the torture we inflicted to get confessions. Get the public stirred up with hate and fear so our own bad actions will slip in under the radar.

The defense attorney said he wanted to make it into a propaganda trial.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
When all the BS and smoke is done, the historical fact remains that the US court system has already prosecuted, convicted and sentenced terrorists captured domestically and abroad. To date, no escapes, no terrorists attacks in retaliation on American soil...and NO WARNINGS FROM HOMELAND SECURITY THAT WOULD ALLUDE TO SUCH.

Period.

Also, all this hoop-la about security is a another neocon "get Obama" smokescreen. Remember folks, New York City held traditional New Year's celebration in Times Square in 2001. That was a little under 3 months after the 9/11 attacks. So if New York and the NSA, and the FBI and the CIA were confident enough to do that, why in the hell after 8 years and a shitload of additional security system (i.e., Homeland Security) is everyone suddenly peeing their pants?

IMO it's a pre-emptive strike before all the testimony that's going to come out, including the torture we inflicted to get confessions. Get the public stirred up with hate and fear so our own bad actions will slip in under the radar.

Yup! There's a LOT of stuff that hasn't been properly hashed out regarding 9/11...and we all know that the fallacy of the Shrub's administration making all the right moves desperately needs to be maintained by the GOP in order for them to have any chance in future elections.
 
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