Understanding Socialism

[Lowaicue]

First of all, the auto industry is a poor example of "uncontrolled capitalism" since it is, and has been, largely controlled by labor unions the past 50 years. If anything, the failure of the American auto industry is a testament to how socialist systems ultimately fail. If we had allowed them to fail, the capitalist free market system would have eventually corrected itself, as it always does. Some car manufacturers would have gone bankrupt, other smaller upstarts would have bought their liquidated assets, and life would have gone on.

On health care, you have not proven to me that our health care system is inferior to any other nation with a socialized system, sorry! I don't buy the statistic showing higher mortality rates, as proof the health system is better, I have explained why I don't buy it, and you haven't refuted that. In terms of medical advancement, technology, innovation, and research, no other country even comes close to us, and it is a direct result of American capitalism and free enterprise, being allowed to work. The areas we struggle in with health care, are largely the result of government intervention and regulation. Even though we are a largely capitalistic society, we did manage to adopt a socialized medical program or two along the way... The VA Hospitals, Medicare, Medicaid... all of them are broke or insolvent, relying on the government subsidies to stay afloat, and offer sub-par results in most cases. Again.... Socialist systems FAIL!

How bloody ridiculous! Was it the unions who designed cars that wouldnt sell? Was it the unions who had a business plan that was flawed. What absolute nonsense. Why dont you blame the blacks? or short people? And had car companies gone bankrupt how many people would have been thrown out of work? and when the unemployment figure rose in some places to higher even than it is now who would you have blamed? The unions??? No. You would have blamed Obama!
Surely I dont have to prove your health care system is inferior any more than I have to prove that the big yellow thing in the sky is the sun.
Come on, Dixie. I know our politics are different and I know you are not really stupid. Let go of this nonsense and help your country to go forward and not back. Forget about your republican loyalties and think about your loyalties to your fellow man and in particular your fellow American man. Isnt that what your christianity is all about?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

How bloody ridiculous! Was it the unions who designed cars that wouldnt sell?

No, it was the unions who demanded so much for their members that the auto maker had to design cheaper cars which the public rejected.

Was it the unions who had a business plan that was flawed. What absolute nonsense.

No capitalist business plan can work in a socialist environment, it's impossible.

Why dont you blame the blacks? or short people?

Because blacks and short people didn't have anything to do with this. Why can't you stay on topic?

And had car companies gone bankrupt how many people would have been thrown out of work? and when the unemployment figure rose in some places to higher even than it is now who would you have blamed? The unions??? No. You would have blamed Obama!

So it's better to be a cog in a socialist system than unemployed in a free-market system? Again, I go back to my original assertion, some people are willing to sacrifice their liberty for knowing they will be cared for. People would have lost their jobs, but guess what? They would have found other jobs!

Surely I dont have to prove your health care system is inferior any more than I have to prove that the big yellow thing in the sky is the sun.

Uhm... yes, you do have to prove it if you are going to claim it! So far, you haven't proven a damn thing. You prattle on about it, you repeat the same lie over and over again, but you can't make it true any more than I can make that big yellow thing in the sky, the moon!

Come on, Dixie. I know our politics are different and I know you are not really stupid. Let go of this nonsense and help your country to go forward and not back. Forget about your republican loyalties and think about your loyalties to your fellow man and in particular your fellow American man. Isnt that what your christianity is all about?

What nonsense am I holding onto? That American Capitalism is superior to Communist Socialism? Sorry, no can do! I will hold onto that idea until the day I die, and I will speak out against Socialism and advocate free market Capitalism until then as well. It's precisely because I DO have loyalty and compassion for my fellow man! The last thing in the world I want, is to be sitting in a bunker 40 years from now, wondering who is coming to save us from our Socialist dictator, and where are we going to get our next meal! I'm trying my best to stop that from happening now, but nimrods like Onzies are oblivious to what is happening. Too many mush-brain idiots have bought into this Eurotrash Socialist bullshit, and think that is the way to go! It's the way to lead our great nation into the garbage pile of failed civilizations.

 

[Lowaicue]

What nonsense am I holding onto? That American Capitalism is superior to Communist Socialism? Sorry, no can do! I will hold onto that idea until the day I die, and I will speak out against Socialism and advocate free market Capitalism until then as well. It's precisely because I DO have loyalty and compassion for my fellow man! The last thing in the world I want, is to be sitting in a bunker 40 years from now, wondering who is coming to save us from our Socialist dictator, and where are we going to get our next meal! I'm trying my best to stop that from happening now, but nimrods like Onzies are oblivious to what is happening. Too many mush-brain idiots have bought into this Eurotrash Socialist bullshit, and think that is the way to go! It's the way to lead our great nation into the garbage pile of failed civilizations.

There would be no question that American capitalism is better than (your understanding of ) communist socialism. However that is NOT the choice you have. Your choice is between a capitalist society in which welfare of people and companies is important or a capitalist society where people can be sacrificed for the profit and comfort of the few.
Are you one of the few? Well, if you are we have nothing else to discuss because naturally you would support the status quo. But I dont think you are. I think you are an ordinary guy trying to make his life as good as he can for himself and his family. I dont honestly think you are so inhuman that you would ignore the suffering of your fellow man. Have you any notion at all about life in a dictatorship? You really do not have to sacrifice your 'great American spirit of freedom' to have concern for others.
You have said you are a religious man. By that I take it to mean you are a christian. Which way do you think Jesus would vote?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

There would be no question that American capitalism is better than (your understanding of ) communist socialism. However that is NOT the choice you have. Your choice is between a capitalist society in which welfare of people and companies is important or a capitalist society where people can be sacrificed for the profit and comfort of the few.
Are you one of the few? Well, if you are we have nothing else to discuss because naturally you would support the status quo. But I dont think you are. I think you are an ordinary guy trying to make his life as good as he can for himself and his family. I dont honestly think you are so inhuman that you would ignore the suffering of your fellow man. Have you any notion at all about life in a dictatorship? You really do not have to sacrifice your 'great American spirit of freedom' to have concern for others.
You have said you are a religious man. By that I take it to mean you are a christian. Which way do you think Jesus would vote?

This isn't about Jesus, or whether I am Christian. This is about the transforming of America into a European Socialist nation. I believe a free market capitalist society affords more advantage for its people, allows more prosperity for its people, and offers more opportunity for its people, across the board. I soundly refute the assertions that socialist systems "help" my fellow man, when the evidence shows, socialist systems enslave my fellow man!

Socialism is promoted successfully because it relies on human greed, as I mentioned earlier. Humans are naturally jealous of other humans. They see them with more stuff, and wish they had it too. Socialists use this natural inclination to foster envy and hate between the classes. Greed causes some people to grasp onto Socialist measures, because they think it will somehow benefit them in the end. It never does.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I think you are an ordinary guy trying to make his life as good as he can for himself and his family.

I think I am fairly well set, although I am not rich. My family is taken care of, but my children have all learned to take responsibility for their own futures. I have been fortunate in business, and I have earned every penny I made, nothing was ever given to me. I have actually qualified for government assistance several times in my life, and refused to apply for it. It has much to do with how I was raised... never ask for charity. I realize not all are that way, and I am okay with helping people in true need of help, it's just a moral thing to do. But all too often, we tend to "help" too much, and the result is dependence and prolonged suffering. It's better to teach a man to fish than to give him one.

I dont honestly think you are so inhuman that you would ignore the suffering of your fellow man.

Not at all. I have volunteered in homeless shelters, donated sweat equity in a battered women shelter and Habitat for Humanity, big contributor to MDA, Salvation Army, and Red Cross... blood and organ donor... and was once the president of the local Humane Society. I believe wholeheartedly in helping my fellow man, and pet! This is why I am so vocal and outspoken on Socialism.

Have you any notion at all about life in a dictatorship? You really do not have to sacrifice your 'great American spirit of freedom' to have concern for others.

I have a good many friends who have lived in dictatorships. I would say a dozen or more, which I think is probably more than average. Only one of them, a Russian royal heiress, was not happier living in a democracy. To a fault, they all enormously value their freedom and have made the most of it. All of them own their own business, even the Russian. The only time I lived in a dictatorship was when I was 12-18, under the rule of my dad, The King. I didn't like it. I had much rather be free!

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Why can't LowIQ acknowledge the mass brutality of dictatorships?

What a loser. True kindness towards fellow men is preventing enslaving and abusive political systems from forming.

 

[Lowaicue]

This isn't about Jesus, or whether I am Christian. This is about the transforming of America into a European Socialist nation. I believe a free market capitalist society affords more advantage for its people, allows more prosperity for its people, and offers more opportunity for its people, across the board. I soundly refute the assertions that socialist systems "help" my fellow man, when the evidence shows, socialist systems enslave my fellow man!

Socialism is promoted successfully because it relies on human greed, as I mentioned earlier. Humans are naturally jealous of other humans. They see them with more stuff, and wish they had it too. Socialists use this natural inclination to foster envy and hate between the classes. Greed causes some people to grasp onto Socialist measures, because they think it will somehow benefit them in the end. It never does.

I do not understand why you persist with the notion that socialism is a choice in American politics. There is no evidence, no evidence whatsoever that this is the case.
I wonder if this concept is a throwback to the McCarthyism of the immediate post war years and the cold war that followed it. I remember many commentators in the west (obviously our west and not yours) who were extremely critical of the way that many Americans were being purposefully manipulated to believe and fear 'the enemy out there' and to equate that enemy with the 'evil communists'.

There have been no truly communist governments, they have been started but have never survived. There have been socialist governments and still are. The citizens of those nations are not thrust into penury, indeed they tend to be well educated, well rounded and responsible members of their nation's and the world's community.
Capitalist governments, similarly, cannot be described as total failures, but under capitalism there has been much more exploitation of resources and much less decision making possibility by the citizenry.
The main tenets of your constitution, as I understand it, espouse freedom and respect. Under 'bushism' your freedoms were curtailed and your respect for others and for yourselves was damaged. (Respect is NOT carrying a gun and pretending you are John Wayne).
I have lived under, what was in fact, a dictatorship. The British dictatorship of Hong Kong. It afforded total freedom without the need for flags, guns, patriot acts or, come to that, religion. I have seen a different kind of dictatorship, in China, and it is not something I would recommend to anyone. I have seen 'corruptism' in the Philipines under Marcos and now under Arroyo and know or knew some of Manila's corrupt police. I have seen capitalism too, as all from the first world have. Counting injustices, I would put capitalism way above true socialism though lower that dictatorship and corruptism. Obama is a capitalist. He leans slightly towards a doctrine of fairness but a capitalist he most certainly is.
Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Lowaicue]

Why can't LowIQ acknowledge the mass brutality of dictatorships?

What a loser. True kindness towards fellow men is preventing enslaving and abusive political systems from forming.

I am pleased to acknowledge the brutality of some dictatorships. Why should I not?

 

[DamnYankee]

True, but 2 years ago CNBC was doing spots on how great their economy was in Dubai. How everyone was making money hand over fist and when everyone else was in a slump, Dubai was thriving.

That's one more reason not to watch a shit network like CNBC. Dubai was thriving because the international price of its single export was high, and the rest of the world was hurting because Dubai's single export was high. You just made my point for me, thanks.

 

[apple0154]

As I said, watching 40 years of the progressive movement in America has taught me a lot. I now see the reason people chose Socialism over freedom and liberty. It is actually rooted in greed... the desire for something more.

More? How many people obtain a education looking forward to a life of welfare checks and food stamps?

You take for granted what is most precious, our freedom and liberty, and you seek to give this away to the State, so we can all be cared for and nurtured by the State.

Wrong. It is like an insurance policy. One becomes ill. One loses their job. They want to know they won't starve or end up sleeping on the street. To equate welfare checks and food stamps to nurturing is insane.

The problem with Socialist models is, they don't ever work. They look good on paper, make sense in a philosophical viewpoint, but in practicality, just do not work. I believe the primary reason for this, is because Socialism stifles creativity and imagination, which kills motivation. It makes it virtually impossible to thrive and prosper, because all resources are controlled by the State, and subsequently, they reap all the benefits. The individual has no motivation to succeed, when they know the State is going to take it from them. At first, people work in good faith, thinking it will pay off in the end, but decades pass and the economic situation only worsens. The harder you work, the more the State demands and expects from you. Eventually your will to succeed is broken.

Take what from them, exactly? As in taxes like that infamous Joe the Plumber was going on about?

When it was current news I did a breakdown on Joe's rant. Remember the proposed tax increase on ones earnings going from $250,000/yr to $275,000/yr? The discussion was concerning 3% on the additional $25,000. That's $750.00.

If one considers the $750.00 over the total earnings of $275,000 it is 0.27%. Just a fraction over ¼ of one percent. Expressed another way it is equivalent to 27 cents out of a hundred dollars.

So, are you saying that if a person has to give 27 cents out of a hundred dollars they earn that will kill their motivation? That’s about one dollar out of $370.00. Would that stifle a person’s creativity and imagination? Would that interfere with ones retirement plans?

 

[apple0154]

Obama said he planned to transform America, and in his first year, he has been successful in allowing "the state" to take control of the financial sector, and our largest manufacturing sector, the automobile industry. Currently at bat, is the health care and insurance systems.

And why is that? Because the current version of capitalism being practiced is a dismal failure.

What is truly "ignorant" is to believe this is not a move toward a Socialist government, and away from Capitalism. This president has not done one single thing to promote or encourage Capitalism, and he won't.

Do you mean encourage people who earn $275,000/yr to rebel against paying ¼ of one percent more in taxes to help the less fortunate? Do you mean encouraging company executives to grab millions of dollars in bonuses while others lose their life savings? Do you mean encouraging companies to not listen to employees and in the end give the employee’s pension money to the executives as bonuses before declaring bankruptcy? Is that what you want Obama to encourage?

 

[apple0154]

(Msg. 44) Socialism is promoted successfully because it relies on human greed, as I mentioned earlier. Humans are naturally jealous of other humans. They see them with more stuff, and wish they had it too. Socialists use this natural inclination to foster envy and hate between the classes. Greed causes some people to grasp onto Socialist measures, because they think it will somehow benefit them in the end. It never does.

Greed? Sure, Dixie. Everyone’s ambition is to qualify for welfare and food stamps. And who hasn’t dreamed of living in a government housing project?

Just wait until government medical becomes fully available. People will be jumping out of windows and in front of cars just to get a piece of the pie.

 

[Socrtease]

Bailouts, assistance, rescue efforts. Not permanent or even long-term takeovers of business.

It is propping up businesses that were going to die, thus prolonging their death and making the ulimate death even worse. Businesses fail. It is the way of the market economy. They fail when they are not competitive or their owners made bad decisions. We should not reward that sort of thing with unnatural life. Yes it hurts, but only for a while. Some other business comes in, picks up the pieces and the hurt eventually goes away. The problem is, IMO, Americans have been come spoiled and don't think there is any such thing as downturns in the economy.

 

[christiefan915]

it is happening at GM....the government owns 60% of GM and forced out the last CEO....if you don't think that is control of the business and means of production you're cracked...

healthcare is a socialist program, so is medicaid, and SS....how do you believe they are not socialist programs?

GM is going to pay back their 60% "mortgage". How does that make it socialism?

 

[christiefan915]

What do you consider or call the U.S. government's investment in GM, AIG and others on Wall St?

I call it a mortgage.

 

[Onceler]

It is propping up businesses that were going to die, thus prolonging their death and making the ulimate death even worse. Businesses fail. It is the way of the market economy. They fail when they are not competitive or their owners made bad decisions. We should not reward that sort of thing with unnatural life. Yes it hurts, but only for a while. Some other business comes in, picks up the pieces and the hurt eventually goes away. The problem is, IMO, Americans have been come spoiled and don't think there is any such thing as downturns in the economy.

I understand that argument, but disagree that there could be a worse time for GM to fail than the 1st half of this year.

Also, the auto industry is a somewhat different animal; we have been losing manufacturing base for decades, which is not desirable for anyone. I think it was worth saving, or at least trying, and I disagree that it's inevitable that a company like GM will die now.

Downturns are fine; depressions are not.

Regardless, none of what happened represents "Socialism."

 

[Topspin]

Mad ups to those of you college educated people banging your head against the brick wall that is Socialism (any non Nascar, KKK, ghestapo police state ie Dixieesque policy = socialism).
I will just chose to laugh in his wife beater wearing face, him and all the other baby Ashcroft bafoons that most neocons are. Peace

 

[apple0154]

It is propping up businesses that were going to die, thus prolonging their death and making the ulimate death even worse. Businesses fail. It is the way of the market economy. They fail when they are not competitive or their owners made bad decisions. We should not reward that sort of thing with unnatural life. Yes it hurts, but only for a while. Some other business comes in, picks up the pieces and the hurt eventually goes away. The problem is, IMO, Americans have been come spoiled and don't think there is any such thing as downturns in the economy.

The problem is the average worker does not understand how the "system" operates. Small, community based companies/employers were held accountable to their employees/community. The person making the decisions depended on the continuation of the company's success because that was their livelihood as well.

Large corporations give the appearance of being part of the community but the reality is they are not. The person making the important decisions most likely doesn't live anywhere near the community. If one branch folds it makes no difference to the person making the decision. In fact, the closing of a branch probably furthers the person's career if it saves the corporation money.

The same thing applies to large banks and other financial companies. They don't care if foreclosure procedures turn the community against them. They have many communities in which to operate. Their livelihood does not depend on one community.

That said, I have nothing against large corporations. It is the way of the future. On many levels they make sense. One of them being able to offer lower prices.

The solution is more government involvement. Since their dependence on a specific community is removed there should be some form of community contribution. For example, a limit on interest rate charges or an unemployment fund or money set aside to help people find work if/when the corporation decides to pull up stakes. Or simply taxes that the community puts aside for when the employees find themselves unemployed.

As we progress our lives become more entwined. Regarding this thread, from the viewpoint of Dixie's comments regarding Socialism, the government can get involved in businesses without trying to micro-manage or control it. If a business affects a large number of people, be it employees or investors, then I feel it's the governments responsibility to maintain oversight or have a fund to which businesses contribute.

Furthermore, just as an individual/small company can not advertise a product as curing an illness/disease without proper proof people should be required to show some proof in regards to what they offer. Whether it's the person opening a hairdresser shop because they own a pair of scissors or someone with a tool box claiming they are experts in home renovation, if that's what Dixie was referring to when stating Obama is not encouraging capitalism, then that is a very good thing.

From my experience there is no lack of people wanting to open their own business whether or not they know the slightest thing about business or have any relevant experience.

 

[DamnYankee]

No it's not. That's just plain brain dead crap. You can rationalize anything as being socialism that way. The founding fathers didn't envisualize the automobile. Does that make DOT a socialist organization?

If you want to have a meaningful discussion about socialism lets talk about the philosophy it's founded on and not what Rush Limbaugh tells you it is.

Actually, the Founders did envision a DOT: Article I Section 8 Clause 7 'establish post roads'.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

I am pleased to acknowledge the brutality of some dictatorships. Why should I not?

You tell me, douchebag.