Understanding Socialism

apple0154 said:
You have cleared up one thing. Now I understand why there are folks against government medical. With limited comprehension skills something like changes to medical services must be completely overwhelming.

I suppose that's why the Dems just want to go ahead and push the bill through. They realize the futility in debating such folks.
Click to expand...


Is you refusal to address my comment, an admission of your defeat?? :palm:
 
Dixie said:
What you really need to understand is the opening post of this thread. There are people who favor letting the government make their choices and control their liberty and freedom, in return for taking care of their needs. They don't have faith in capitalist free market systems, they fear capitalist greed will result in unfairness to someone along the way, and this is reason enough to oppose capitalism.

The Socialist promise is too tempting to resist for people who feel this way. It all makes sense, seems like it would be the most fair way to do things, solves all the problems of inequity because we all have the same thing. In your minds, this 'equalness' is the ultimate goal, because it is what you consider "fair" to everyone. The problem is, you've given up freedom and liberty, and there is no catalyst for motivation. Man doesn't succeed without motivation, it just doesn't happen. If there is no compelling reason to strive for success and prosperity, man becomes mired in despair and hopelessness, and the socialist system ultimately crumbles.
Click to expand...

What motivation does man need? To know if he becomes ill he won't get medical attention?

There are lots of reasons to strive for success and prosperity. The despair and hopelessness is caused by a corrupt society such as was evident, and may still be, in places like the Soviet Union. From crooked Police to employers to neighbors to a legal system corruption was rampant.

Years ago I dated a lady from Bulgaria. Intelligent and educated from a well-to-do family. When Bulgaria was under Soviet control she received Exit Visas to play chess in foreign countries allowing her to experience the world.

Anyway, I dated her after the Soviet collapse. I asked why her mother and father didn't want to come for a visit. She told me their home would be looted if local authorities knew they were out of the country.

That is what contributes to people not striving to get ahead. It has nothing to do with the government helping people. That is just nonsense. It has to do with official corruption which filters down to the average person. It wasn't due to the government taxing some people in order to help others. It was due to lawlessness and corruption from the top to the street level. Utilizing a body guard when going out was on par to having a weekly lawn maintenance company drop by, lest one drive to town and end up walking home because their car was stolen.

It is not Socialism that holds people back. It is the lawlessness. That's why being governed by the Rule of Law is so important. Capitalism, without laws, does not operate any better than Socialism without laws as Mr. Madoff, the folks at Enron and other assorted thieves have clearly shown us.

Ensuring life's necessities does not promote despair nor helplessness. If it did then the children from wealthy families would be more affected than those from the ghetto. While some folks do manage to crawl their way up the ladder the preponderance of people in important positions were not motivated by poverty. Lack of food, clothing, medical care or other life necessities were never a motivating factor.

We've been told a lie. A huge lie.

There are many countries considered Socialist in which the people are extremely happy. Surveys, interviews and statistics bear that out. It's common sense if one does not have a major worry they are more productive.

When are you more productive; when worried or when experiencing relative peace of mind?

This is not rocket science. We have been lied to, big time.

Change. It's long overdue.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Is you refusal to address my comment, an admission of your defeat?? :palm:
Click to expand...

Comprehension skills. It's all about comprehension skills.

If a government plan is such a bad idea the opponents would want the people to see that. It would put the topic to rest. But the opponents know a government plan will eventually blow them put of the water just as every other government medical plan has done around the world.

Now do you get it?
 
I asked why her mother and father didn't want to come for a visit. She told me their home would be looted if local authorities knew they were out of the country.

That is what contributes to people not striving to get ahead. It has nothing to do with the government helping people. That is just nonsense. It has to do with official corruption which filters down to the average person. It wasn't due to the government taxing some people in order to help others. It was due to lawlessness and corruption from the top to the street level. Utilizing a body guard when going out was on par to having a weekly lawn maintenance company drop by, lest one drive to town and end up walking home because their car was stolen.

It is not Socialism that holds people back. It is the lawlessness. That's why being governed by the Rule of Law is so important. Capitalism, without laws, does not operate any better than Socialism without laws as Mr. Madoff, the folks at Enron and other assorted thieves have clearly shown us.
Click to expand...

Corruption is rampant in a Socialist system because corruption is the ONLY way to achieve anything greater for yourself! This is precisely why Socialist systems fail, and your example illustrates the critical flaw in Socialist policy. Do you not think, when government takes over our health care, there will NOT be some corruption?

What "holds people back" is the Socialist policies themselves! In a socialist system, you aren't allowed to have more than others, everyone has to have the same thing! That is what you seek to do with health care now, make it where we all have the same thing. You destroy the motivation to do anything better, to try and achieve something better, because there is no point in it.

Mr. Madoff and the folks at Enron BROKE THE LAW! They went to prison for it! In a socialist system, they would have been able to cover up what was going on, and continue the corruption to the bitter end. There would have been no motivation to stop them, what difference would it make to the average person, how much loot they were stealing, in a socialist system, where everyone has the same thing? It's not costing you anything, it's not rewarding you in any way to blow the whistle, so why would you care? It is precisely because we do have a capitalist system, where people do care about their investments and future prosperity, that whistleblowers revealed the corruption with Madoff and Enron!
 
There are many countries considered Socialist in which the people are extremely happy. Surveys, interviews and statistics bear that out. It's common sense if one does not have a major worry they are more productive.
Click to expand...

No, there really isn't. This is mostly propaganda fed to you by Socialists. There ARE some people who have never known anything but Socialism, and it's conceivable they think Socialism is better, but they have never experienced, and don't understand capitalism.

People are NOT more productive when being more productive has no benefit whatsoever! You can tell yourself whatever you like, but that is just a fact of human nature. If your boss said he would guarantee your weekly pay regardless of whether you worked a day or 7 days, how many days would you work? You have no worries, your pay will be the same regardless, so which would you chose? Work a day, or work 7 days? You can see, obviously, lack of worry has nothing to do with motivation to produce!
 
Dixie said:
No, there really isn't. This is mostly propaganda fed to you by Socialists. There ARE some people who have never known anything but Socialism, and it's conceivable they think Socialism is better, but they have never experienced, and don't understand capitalism.

People are NOT more productive when being more productive has no benefit whatsoever! You can tell yourself whatever you like, but that is just a fact of human nature. If your boss said he would guarantee your weekly pay regardless of whether you worked a day or 7 days, how many days would you work? You have no worries, your pay will be the same regardless, so which would you chose? Work a day, or work 7 days? You can see, obviously, lack of worry has nothing to do with motivation to produce!
Click to expand...

Good thing liberals aren't proposing anything like that.

Finally, after 400+ posts, you admit that your original post was stupid. Yay!
 
Onceler said:
Good thing liberals aren't proposing anything like that.

Finally, after 400+ posts, you admit that your original post was stupid. Yay!
Click to expand...

Well, yes, actually, they are proposing something very similar. They are proposing the 'government' (i.e.; the taxpayer) provide health care for all Americans. There is no motivation for anyone to strive for anything greater, we will all have the same health care, provided by the government. It doesn't matter if we work and contribute to the system, or if we sit on our asses, we will be given the same thing.
 
Dixie said:
Well, yes, actually, they are proposing something very similar. They are proposing the 'government' (i.e.; the taxpayer) provide health care for all Americans. There is no motivation for anyone to strive for anything greater, we will all have the same health care, provided by the government. It doesn't matter if we work and contribute to the system, or if we sit on our asses, we will be given the same thing.
Click to expand...

That's a stretch. Your assertion is that, once we have healthcare, there is nothing for us to strive for, and it will strip us of ambition?

Dixieland!
 
apple0154 said:
Comprehension skills. It's all about comprehension skills.

If a government plan is such a bad idea the opponents would want the people to see that. It would put the topic to rest. But the opponents know a government plan will eventually blow them put of the water just as every other government medical plan has done around the world.

Now do you get it?
Click to expand...


Was that a "YES, apple admits defeat"?
 
Onceler said:
That's a stretch. Your assertion is that, once we have healthcare, there is nothing for us to strive for, and it will strip us of ambition?

Dixieland!
Click to expand...

I understand you have to stretch my point into something absurd that I didn't say. This is becoming a common tactic from the left, who have no basis for their arguments. We are talking about Socialism vs. Capitalism. Nationalized health care is just one tiny part of an overall socialist system. The same socialist principles can be applied to anything, if we can apply them to our health care, the most intimate aspect of our lives!

My point is not that we would have nothing to strive for, it is that we wouldn't have a reason to strive for anything, government controls it! What would be the purpose of developing a capitalist solution to the health care problem, once a socialist solution is in place? Both systems can't work together, they don't work together in any other aspect, and it's ridiculous to presume they would in this case. You are effectively killing the capitalist system, and replacing it with a socialist system, which will eventually be rife with corruption and fail, but in the interim, will destroy the quality of health care and availability in America.
 
Dixie said:
No, there really isn't. This is mostly propaganda fed to you by Socialists. There ARE some people who have never known anything but Socialism, and it's conceivable they think Socialism is better, but they have never experienced, and don't understand capitalism.

People are NOT more productive when being more productive has no benefit whatsoever! You can tell yourself whatever you like, but that is just a fact of human nature. If your boss said he would guarantee your weekly pay regardless of whether you worked a day or 7 days, how many days would you work? You have no worries, your pay will be the same regardless, so which would you chose? Work a day, or work 7 days? You can see, obviously, lack of worry has nothing to do with motivation to produce!
Click to expand...

That's not what you said here.

You can't just contradict yourself within a few posts. We're onto you now...
 
Dixie said:
Corruption is rampant in a Socialist system because corruption is the ONLY way to achieve anything greater for yourself! This is precisely why Socialist systems fail, and your example illustrates the critical flaw in Socialist policy. Do you not think, when government takes over our health care, there will NOT be some corruption?

What "holds people back" is the Socialist policies themselves! In a socialist system, you aren't allowed to have more than others, everyone has to have the same thing! That is what you seek to do with health care now, make it where we all have the same thing. You destroy the motivation to do anything better, to try and achieve something better, because there is no point in it.

Mr. Madoff and the folks at Enron BROKE THE LAW! They went to prison for it! In a socialist system, they would have been able to cover up what was going on, and continue the corruption to the bitter end. There would have been no motivation to stop them, what difference would it make to the average person, how much loot they were stealing, in a socialist system, where everyone has the same thing? It's not costing you anything, it's not rewarding you in any way to blow the whistle, so why would you care? It is precisely because we do have a capitalist system, where people do care about their investments and future prosperity, that whistleblowers revealed the corruption with Madoff and Enron!
Click to expand...

Where do you get the idea a person can't have more? Taxes are a percentage, a part of.

I'm not talking about everyone being equal or everyone having the same amount of everything. I'm talking about everyone having a minimum worth of life's necessities.

When it comes to corruption it's more difficult unless everyone is corrupt. Every "department" or aspect of a medical practice is scrutinized by everyone so the opportunity to cover it up is lessened unless everyone agrees. Everything is open because it is public.

If you are a partner in a company you have a better chance of knowing the financial state of the company compared to being an employee. An employee does not know if the company can afford to pay higher wages because they do not have access to private information.

That's why government corruption is discovered. People have access.
 
Dixie said:
No, there really isn't. This is mostly propaganda fed to you by Socialists. There ARE some people who have never known anything but Socialism, and it's conceivable they think Socialism is better, but they have never experienced, and don't understand capitalism.

People are NOT more productive when being more productive has no benefit whatsoever! You can tell yourself whatever you like, but that is just a fact of human nature. If your boss said he would guarantee your weekly pay regardless of whether you worked a day or 7 days, how many days would you work? You have no worries, your pay will be the same regardless, so which would you chose? Work a day, or work 7 days? You can see, obviously, lack of worry has nothing to do with motivation to produce!
Click to expand...

Government programs do not pay the same as if one worked. Let's be realistic here.

Healthy, happy people naturally want to improve their lives. We know that healthy, happy children tend to excel. Why? Because it's natural.
 
Dixie said:
Well, yes, actually, they are proposing something very similar. They are proposing the 'government' (i.e.; the taxpayer) provide health care for all Americans. There is no motivation for anyone to strive for anything greater, we will all have the same health care, provided by the government. It doesn't matter if we work and contribute to the system, or if we sit on our asses, we will be given the same thing.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you're saying the only reason people work is to have health care? Perhaps you'd like to clarify your post?
 
apple0154 said:
Where do you get the idea a person can't have more? Taxes are a percentage, a part of.

I'm not talking about everyone being equal or everyone having the same amount of everything. I'm talking about everyone having a minimum worth of life's necessities.

When it comes to corruption it's more difficult unless everyone is corrupt. Every "department" or aspect of a medical practice is scrutinized by everyone so the opportunity to cover it up is lessened unless everyone agrees. Everything is open because it is public.

If you are a partner in a company you have a better chance of knowing the financial state of the company compared to being an employee. An employee does not know if the company can afford to pay higher wages because they do not have access to private information.

That's why government corruption is discovered. People have access.
Click to expand...


People already have a minimum of necessities, you can't give me one single solitary example to the contrary. We provide free medical care for the elderly and the poor through Medicare and Medicaid. We provide (on the state level) free health clinics for anyone who can't afford medical care. We are currently paying (on average) 25% or more of our pay in taxes, to pay for programs to benefit the needy. All of this knee-jerk emotionalism about the poor and needy who don't have minimal care, is preposterous! You keep repeating it as if it's a proven fact, and you've offered absolutely NOTHING to support it. I keep bringing up facts that clearly contradict this, but you just keep ignoring them.

I am not following what you are saying about corruption, but I can tell you this.... When the GOVERNMENT is in control of everything related to health care, there will be no transparency, nothing will be public except what they want to be public. If you believe there is no corruption in government programs, you are a fool.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top