The Company Behind Missing Tourist Sub Fired an Employee After He Expressed Safety

Doc Dutch said:
His best evidence was 21(?) previous safe trips.
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That's not a lot of data points, and knowing what I know now I would be asking what the science was, if any, about the known effects of cumulative stress fatigue on an experimental carbon titanium alloy.
 
Cypress said:
That's not a lot of data points, and knowing what I know now I would be asking what the science was, if any, about the known effects of cumulative stress fatigue on an experimental carbon titanium alloy.
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That's what the experts were concerned about.
 
Most aircraft now made by Boeing and Airbus , gulf-stream have their fuselage made of carbon fiber, very well controlled and pressure tested .
 
Doc Dutch said:
That's what the experts were concerned about.
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Yeah, one trip or twenty trips does not ensure the next trip will be safe, unless you have really good science showing how the alloy performs and stands up to the cumulative stress effects accumulated over all those trips to the ocean floor. Microfractures can accumulate and maybe go undetected, unless you really understand the material science of the alloy and the environment in which it is used
 
Cypress said:
Yeah, one trip or twenty trips does not ensure the next trip will be safe, unless you have really good science showing how the alloy performs and stands up to the cumulative stress effects accumulated over all those trips to the ocean floor. Microfractures can accumulate and maybe go undetected, unless you really understand the material science of the alloy and the environment in which it is used
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Aircraft wings are flexed thousands of times in a machine prior to certification of the design. Propellers and wing spars are periodically subjected to dye-testing and x-rays to look for microcracks.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Aircraft wings are flexed thousands of times in a machine prior to certification of the design. Propellers and wing spars are periodically subjected to dye-testing and x-rays to look for microcracks.
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Good to know. Flying is one of the safest industries out there, obviously because of the effort put into testing and understanding the properties of the alloys used
 
Cypress said:
Good to know. Flying is one of the safest industries out there, obviously because of the effort put into testing and understanding the properties of the alloys used
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It literally took decades to increase airline safety to the point where it is. The 787 is largely composite; carbon fiber. When it takes off, the wingtips flex up unusually high. This is seen in the last 30 seconds of the video below as the plane lands.

Still, problems pop up. The 737 Max controversy being a recent example.

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-wings-flex/

 
Doc Dutch said:
It literally took decades to increase airline safety to the point where it is. The 787 is largely composite; carbon fiber. When it takes off, the wingtips flex up unusually high. This is seen in the last 30 seconds of the video below as the plane lands.

Still, problems pop up. The 737 Max controversy being a recent example.

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-wings-flex/

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40 to 50 years ago, it seems like there would be at least one or two major commercial jet tragedies a year, in the United States alone.

Now, it seems like we can go years without ever hearing about a major airline tragedy in the USA.
 
Cypress said:
40 to 50 years ago, it seems like there would be at least one or two major commercial jet tragedies a year, in the United States alone.

Now, it seems like we can go years without ever hearing about a major airline tragedy in the USA.
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It's a system involving aircraft design, aircrew training and air traffic control.

One thought is how many Trumpers are complaining about the lack of certification involved with the Titan...the same people who support deregulation of many industry safety standards as too much "red tape" and costing profits and jobs. LOL

LWers complain too, but they are always seeking more regulation of everything. ;)
 
Cypress said:
I wondered why they didn't use proven technology. Dutch Uncle pointed out the Russian Mir had an impeccable safety record and was certified to dive to 20k feet below surface.

Just being innovative for the sake of being innovative was never that great of a selling point to me.
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James Cameron says the composite carbon idea was a dangerous one, and he said all 33 of his dives on Titanic were in Russian submersibles using proven technology

Cameron dove with Russian submersibles that he said used "very, very well-understood design methodologies" and had a "flawless operating record" throughout their career.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/23/1183975136/james-cameron-titanic-titan-sub

Cameron and many others in the deep submergence community had long been concerned about the Oceangate vessel's safety and OceanGate's experimental approach, he said on Thursday, lamenting that the company had ignored experts' calls to undergo a standard certification process.
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Cypress said:
James Cameron says the composite carbon idea was a dangerous one, and he said all 33 of his dives on Titanic were in Russian submersibles using proven technology
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Titanium is expensive and harder to work with, but the Russians advanced the tech. The Russian Mir submersibles were made from titanium.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/titanium-submarines-why-navy-left-russians-192619
These innovations were enabled, in no small part, through the Alfa’s revolutionary use of a titanium alloy hull. An extremely light and durable metal, Titanium brings several advantages over a standard steel hull construction. A titanium construction facilitates higher pressure tolerances, allowing a submarine to operate at significantly greater depths. As seen with the Alfa and Papa classes, the comparative lightness of titanium bears the potential for record-breaking speeds. The metal is likewise resistant to corrosion and paramagnetic, meaning that it can be harder to detect by naval vessels using magnetic anomaly detectors (MAD).,,,

...In hindsight, there are numerous reasons why the U.S. Navy did not follow the Soviet shipbuilding industry down the path of titanium hulls. To begin with, titanium is an extraordinarily rare and expensive metal that’s much more complex to process than iron. Titanium panels are more difficult to bend into shape, especially on the scale of military submarines. To be successfully manipulated, titanium had to be handled in specially constructed, argon-infused warehouses by trained welders equipped with an outside supply of oxygen. A costly and time-consuming process of trial and error reaffirmed that titanium is subject to embrittlement by hydrogen at higher temperatures, potentially causing design imperfections that may compromise the submarine’s structural integrity.
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Cypress said:
I sense that the Oceangate guy fancied himself some kind of visionary, bypassing bureaucratic red tape and innovating new technology that the industry experts and established inspectors just didn't appreciate.
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Agreed. His ego outpaced his abilities and expertise.
 
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