New York marks fewest murders ever

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
I've tried the multi quote thing...for some reason it doesn't work for me. No big deal.

As for your Wikipedia quote....it keeps leaving out the crucial bits of chronology and information that I've previously provided. Bottom line: you keep repeating yourself, which doesn't change ALL the facts once presented. You Wiki leaves out that Bratton and Maple worked together under Dinkins...and YOU cannot guarantee that Compstat wouldn't have been implemented had Dinkins been re-elected. What YOU AND I CAN BE ASSURED OF IS THE FACT THAT GIULIANI TOOK CREDIT FOR BRATTON'S WORK.

That is your problem...YOU don't want to acknowledge that Giuliani LIED. YOU don't want to acknowledge that Compstat along with NYC gun laws have worked together to lower NYC crime rate...both being of utmost importance. YOU want to minimalize Giluiani's faults..and history just won't let you. You distort what the article I presented stated, that Giuliani's merging of housing/transit was more of acquiesence of things already in motion as opposed to leadership brilliance. You just stubbornly repeat your claim regarding the stats about black crime given WITHOUT offering any alternative information for that particular incidence that would support your opinion....a prejudgement on your part that you stubbornly hold onto, no matter how you slice it. And if you read the article that says Giuliani was wrongly criticised, you would have noticed the amount of FACTS that were grudgingly acknowledged that coincide with what I'm saying.....the author just didn't like those facts and stated that many were irrelevent (in his opinion).

Bottom line: Giuliani can take credit for hiring Bratton, but NOT for innovations that Bratton was truly responsible for.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Rudy_Giuliani_Crime.htm


As usual Wise, you ignore/disregard facts that you don't like, you don't read carefully and comprehensively what disagrees/disproves your contentions and beliefs. You should lay off the condescending chuckles and declarations of
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others looking foolish when you yourself can't get deal with the WHOLE truth.

wiseones2cents said:
Actually. It does say they worked together. Maple worked under Bratton.

I cannot guarantee but it sounds like a safe bet, since according to the article you supplied? Both mayors before Guiliani tried unsuccesfully merging the housing and transit cops.That includes Dinkins. Therefore without this happening? Compstat would have not been able to fully evolve as it did.

No, I do acknowledge it was a number of factors(not only compstat as you claim). It seems YOU want to give full credit to Bratton and Compstat and absolutely none to Guiliani. That doesn't fly.

At the same time you complain that Guiliani took full credit. Fine. That was noted and he doesn't deserve full credit. Though he does deserve alot of credit. Regardless of whether he lied and other things he did wrong.This is where me and you disagree.

I'm not repeating anything. I'm just pointing out your errors.

P.S. Your style of debate is familair.Is this vincent from the wot board?lol
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Again, Wiki DID NOT emphasize that Maples and Bratton worked under Dinkins.

Again, since you admitted that you didn't read ALL the information I provided, you wouldn't know that the unification of Housing and Transit was inevitable, and that Giuliani presided over a merge, more than issuing an edict.

What doesn't fly is that YOU keep trying to pass off Giuliani's promotion of Bratton as more than what it was....recognition of smart, successful people. Again, after the promotion, Giuliani wanted to take credit for work and ideas that HE DID NOT HAVE. Also, the "lot of credit" you want to give Giuliani DOES NOT STAND UP UNDER SCRUTINY. Just ask the PBA leader from the month prior to 9/11. A matter of fact, a matter of history....deal with it.

You are repeating yourself in various fashions...the thread bares this out.
And yeah, this is SenorVicente. I announced that when I first came on these boards...guess you missed it.
 
Taichiliberal said:
others looking foolish when you yourself can't get deal with the WHOLE truth.




Again, Wiki DID NOT emphasize that Maples and Bratton worked under Dinkins.

Again, since you admitted that you didn't read ALL the information I provided, you wouldn't know that the unification of Housing and Transit was inevitable, and that Giuliani presided over a merge, more than issuing an edict.

What doesn't fly is that YOU keep trying to pass off Giuliani's promotion of Bratton as more than what it was....recognition of smart, successful people. Again, after the promotion, Giuliani wanted to take credit for work and ideas that HE DID NOT HAVE. Also, the "lot of credit" you want to give Giuliani DOES NOT STAND UP UNDER SCRUTINY. Just ask the PBA leader from the month prior to 9/11. A matter of fact, a matter of history....deal with it.

You are repeating yourself in various fashions...the thread bares this out.
And yeah, this is SenorVicente. I announced that when I first came on these boards...guess you missed it.
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So what it didn't emphasize that they worked under Dinkins?The point is that Compstat was formed under Guiliani. Charts of the future was started under Dinkins. See the reason I have to repeat myself is that you are going in circles!!!

Then you say I cannot guarantee that Compstat wouldn't have been implemented had Dinkins been re-elected.

What your article stated was the two mayors before Guiliani(That includes Dinkins) TRIED UNSUCCESFULLY to merge housing and transit cops. What makes you think he would have been succesful the second time around? Guiliani clearly accomplished it. That is the point. Guiliani proved he could do it. Dinkins did not. Guiliani's key move was making Bratton Commissioner. Without which the merger would have never succeeded. Would Dinkins have promoted Bratton? That is pure speculation.

Guiliani was in charge when Compstat evolved and the broken windows program was implemented which allowed more people to get searched and more convictions of bad guys. People were afraid to carry guns.

It clearly states this in the last article you provided which I read fully. Here are some other stats from there.

These stats cannot be denied. All though crime started to drop around 1990, the biggest drop came under Guiliani.

Giuliani’s sampling: large drops in all violent crime
A sampling of the most recent crime statistics (since 1993) shows:
50% drop in overall crime
70% drop in murder
23.4% drop in rape
29.9% drop in felony assault
54.6% drop in robbery
53.2% drop in burglary
40.0% drop in grand larceny
61.2% drop in car thefts
The City’s homicide rate is at its lowest level since 1964.
According to FBI statistics, between 1993 and 1997, NYC crime reduction accounted for a full 25 percent of the nation’s drop in crime.

I knew it!LOL I wasn't around back then. Your style of debating gives you away.lol

Listen Vincent. I understand that he does not deserve all the credit he claimed. He actually exagerated alot, saying he hired 12,000 COPS when in fact it was only about 3660. And the 3600 were paid thanks to Bill Clinton's COPS program(So Clinton should get the credit for that.)

He claimed crime was at a record high. It wasn't but it was just coming done from a record high in 1988 I believe. Basically stating that although crime was on the decline, it was still very bad when Guiliani came in.(the artcile you supplied claims the cops stated the crime was at an all time high when Guiliani took office).

Yes it was a combined effort and alot of the credit should go to the cops and their leadership(Bratton included) which Guiliani overlooked but that doesn't take away from the fact that Guiliani's leadership also played a part.

What did Dinkins do? Did he have a hand in the Charts of the Future? No! He just happened to be the Mayor in charge when Maple implemented HIS idea.

I think that organized crime also played a role as I have already mentioned.....

Anyways. It seems we have a difference of opinion and that no amount of debating will change your mind.lol So lets just say we agree to disagree? It is getting repetative and boring.lol
 
Jeff said:
LMAO, you don't have to be embarrassed your amongst friends Topspin, you and Libby make a nice pair, LOL, I think y'all are actually rather cute, LOL
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wow Jeff you show the same qay tendencies as southernman. Don't be ashamed that your a fudgepacker.
 
wiseones2cents said:
So what it didn't emphasize that they worked under Dinkins?The point is that Compstat was formed under Guiliani. Charts of the future was started under Dinkins. See the reason I have to repeat myself is that you are going in circles!!!

Then you say I cannot guarantee that Compstat wouldn't have been implemented had Dinkins been re-elected.

What your article stated was the two mayors before Guiliani(That includes Dinkins) TRIED UNSUCCESFULLY to merge housing and transit cops. What makes you think he would have been succesful the second time around? Guiliani clearly accomplished it. That is the point. Guiliani proved he could do it. Dinkins did not. Guiliani's key move was making Bratton Commissioner. Without which the merger would have never succeeded. Would Dinkins have promoted Bratton? That is pure speculation.

Guiliani was in charge when Compstat evolved and the broken windows program was implemented which allowed more people to get searched and more convictions of bad guys. People were afraid to carry guns.

It clearly states this in the last article you provided which I read fully. Here are some other stats from there.

These stats cannot be denied. All though crime started to drop around 1990, the biggest drop came under Guiliani.

Giuliani’s sampling: large drops in all violent crime
A sampling of the most recent crime statistics (since 1993) shows:
50% drop in overall crime
70% drop in murder
23.4% drop in rape
29.9% drop in felony assault
54.6% drop in robbery
53.2% drop in burglary
40.0% drop in grand larceny
61.2% drop in car thefts
The City’s homicide rate is at its lowest level since 1964.
According to FBI statistics, between 1993 and 1997, NYC crime reduction accounted for a full 25 percent of the nation’s drop in crime.

I knew it!LOL I wasn't around back then. Your style of debating gives you away.lol

Listen Vincent. I understand that he does not deserve all the credit he claimed. He actually exagerated alot, saying he hired 12,000 COPS when in fact it was only about 3660. And the 3600 were paid thanks to Bill Clinton's COPS program(So Clinton should get the credit for that.)

He claimed crime was at a record high. It wasn't but it was just coming done from a record high in 1988 I believe. Basically stating that although crime was on the decline, it was still very bad when Guiliani came in.(the artcile you supplied claims the cops stated the crime was at an all time high when Guiliani took office).

Yes it was a combined effort and alot of the credit should go to the cops and their leadership(Bratton included) which Guiliani overlooked but that doesn't take away from the fact that Guiliani's leadership also played a part.

What did Dinkins do? Did he have a hand in the Charts of the Future? No! He just happened to be the Mayor in charge when Maple implemented HIS idea.

I think that organized crime also played a role as I have already mentioned.....

Anyways. It seems we have a difference of opinion and that no amount of debating will change your mind.lol So lets just say we agree to disagree? It is getting repetative and boring.lol
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Now you should no better by now that I'm not going to let you bullshit your way out of just being wrong.

Bottom line: The format for Compstat was laid out by Bratton as he worked with Maples, it's original...under Dinkins. For someone to say that Bratton developed Compstat under Giuliani gives the false impression that the concept didn't exist prior to Bratton being promoted to Commissioner. The distinction is crucial because when you add to this the FACT that Giuliani publically took credit for someone elses work, his "America's Mayor" legend becomes tarnished.

And when you rehash a moot point as to whether Dinkins would have promoted Bratton (or have Compstat installed by another Commissioner) is speculation....you then heap on YOUR conjecture that he wouldn't have. More so, you REPEAT the false statement that the merging of housing and transit was Giuliani's sole triumph....as I presented evidence to the contrary that you just ignore.

And your leap about the success of broken windows and guns is a joke...because all one has to do is to look at NYC gun laws and their progress PRIOR to Giuliani's installation, and you'll note that broken windows was nothing more than an afterthought.

You say the stats cannot be denied...yet you IGNORED the analysis of such stats that I provided that showed how the Giuliani's legacy on crime reduction does not stand up to close scrutiny.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/commentary/91.barrett.shtml


You can't on one hand ADMIT to Giuliani's lying about crime stats and such, and then repeat the very distortions that Giuliani wonks use to promot his "America's Mayor legend".

Laugh all you want...but the FACTS are there. Giuliani tried to take credit for another man's work, and then exaggerates his accomplishments to the point where he ignores previous trends. And since you're obviously are not going to acknowledge such, I'd say we're done here.
 
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Taichiliberal said:
Now you should no better by now that I'm not going to let you bullshit your way out of just being wrong.

Bottom line: The format for Compstat was laid out by Bratton as he worked with Maples, it's original...under Dinkins. For someone to say that Bratton developed Compstat under Giuliani gives the false impression that the concept didn't exist prior to Bratton being promoted to Commissioner. The distinction is crucial because when you add to this the FACT that Giuliani publically took credit for someone elses work, his "America's Mayor" legend becomes tarnished.
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Yes it was called charts of the future, though this was not Compstat Vincent.
Charts of the future evolved into compstat under Giuliani.

The fact that Giuliani took ALL the credit when Bratton, Maple and the cops themselves deserve most, is a moot point. This doesn't change the fact that crime decreased under Guiliani's leadership. He gave the cops more power.You must give him some credit.

And when you rehash a moot point as to whether Dinkins would have promoted Bratton (or have Compstat installed by another Commissioner) is speculation....you then heap on YOUR conjecture that he wouldn't have. More so, you REPEAT the false statement that the merging of housing and transit was Giuliani's sole triumph....as I presented evidence to the contrary that you just ignore.
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No. What is speculation is that you believe Compstat would have evolved under Dinkins and that the merger was inevitable.What I do know is that Giuliani DID accomplish this.

And your leap about the success of broken windows and guns is a joke...because all one has to do is to look at NYC gun laws and their progress PRIOR to Giuliani's installation, and you'll note that broken windows was nothing more than an afterthought.
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Broken windows was very significant. It stopped petty violators to evolve into serious criminals. Also cops were given more power to search more people which applied more over all pressure on criminals.

You say the stats cannot be denied...yet you IGNORED the analysis of such stats that I provided that showed how the Giuliani's legacy on crime reduction does not stand up to close scrutiny.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/commentary/91.barrett.shtml


You can't on one hand ADMIT to Giuliani's lying about crime stats and such, and then repeat the very distortions that Giuliani wonks use to promot his "America's Mayor legend".

Laugh all you want...but the FACTS are there. Giuliani tried to take credit for another man's work, and then exaggerates his accomplishments to the point where he ignores previous trends. And since you're obviously are not going to acknowledge such, I'd say we're done here.
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Ok. I read your link. Yes it seems to suggest that Guiliani deserves very little
credit. And he is more of an accountant and not a lawyer and he is cooking the books(manipulating numbers).lol And that the cops were empowered by his leadership, to the point where it seems it led to police brutality.

Though from what I have learned from debating online? You can find a counter argument on every subject on the net. I can probably find a link that will say that Dinkins deserves no credit or that Giuliani deserves alot of credit.

I will just end it by saying they ALL deserve credit and Guiliani does not deserve all the credit he received, and he may deserve less of the credit, I thought he did.
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Broken windows was very significant. It stopped petty violators to evolve into serious criminals. Also cops were given more power to search more people which applied more over all pressure on criminals.


Wrong. Couple this with the previous link:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/02/19/the_cracks_in_broken_windows/

You're just stubbornly repeating yourself and denying the fact based information I put forth...you're attempt to categorize evidence and information that contradicts your beliefs as mere "opinions" is disingenuous at best.

All the other points in your last post are just rehashing previous points that were resolved.

Wise, you can't grey area this no matter how many times and ways you repeat yoursefl.......the evidence PROVES that your wanting to give Giuliani more credit than he's due on the points I originally stated just won't fly. You were wrong....but you'll never fully admit it. So be it. We're done.
 
Topspin said:
les guns = less murders DUH!!!!!!!!!
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2+2=5

img.functions.php
 
Topspin said:
I don't rank virgin spank material as high as men's opinions.

3dork
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So you are going to ignore your own fucking eyes and... hold on, men's opinions?!!? So, now that you've outed yourself, and are unable to make your own judgements about what constitutes attractiveness in women... This is all so wrong!!

I'm very confused here. Will Top ever live this down???
 
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