They miscalculated’: Ukraine turns the tables on Russia’s Black Sea Fleet

Cypress said:
I accept your failure to find any evidence that Ukraine tried to ferociously defend Crimea in any meaningful way in 2014.

Are you frequently in the habit of demanding the United States airlift military aid and commit our credibility to people who won't even defend themselves? I bet you wanted US troops to keep fighting and dying in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
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How many Ukrainian troops were stationed in Crimea? :dunno:
 
Bigdog said:
How many Ukrainian troops were stationed in Crimea? :dunno:
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Thousands.
And they gave up Crimea basically without firing a shot.

March 2014 - Thousands of Ukrainian troops have been besieged on bases in Crimea, offering no armed resistance but refusing to surrender, since President Vladimir Putin declared Moscow’s right to intervene at the start of the month.

On Monday, bowing to the reality on the ground, Kiev’s leadership announced Ukrainian forces were being pulled out to spare them and their families further Russian threats. A few hours later many were already on their way out.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-base-idUSBREA2N09J20140324
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It would have been stupid as shit for Obama to commit to airlifting our military resources and committing our credibility to a conflict the Ukrainians themselves weren't willing to fight.

In 2014, Ukraine was much more divided; pro-Russian factions and constituencies were widespread in Crimea. Russia's 2022 invasion was the catalyst that really united Ukrainians.
 
Cypress said:
The Ukrainian army didn't even fire a shot to defend Ukraine in 2014, and basically gave it up without a fight.

The United States isn't going to go to war for people who won't defend themselves.


Since 2014, we and NATO have trained the formerly ineffective Ukrainian army to be able to defend it's territory.
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Yes an armed conflict over Crimea broke out in 2014.
 
Cypress said:
Trump hates Ukraine and had to be coerced by his staff to give javelins to Ukraine. Congress also had to override and outvote Trump's veto threats on Ukranian aid.

When you can post news accounts of the fierce battles the Ukranian army fought to defend Crimea in 2014, then I will accept there was a compelling reason for the United States to commit it's substantial resources and credibility to the fight for Crimea back then.
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The facts remain Trump sent Javilins and the CIA and Obama sent MREs and Blankets. Which do you think helped the most.
 
ExpressLane said:
Yes an armed conflict over Crimea broke out in 2014.
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So you and Bigdog are completely ignorant about the events that transpired in 2014.

The Ukrainian army basically gave up Crimea without a fight.

March 2014 - Thousands of Ukrainian troops have been besieged on bases in Crimea, offering no armed resistance but refusing to surrender, since President Vladimir Putin declared Moscow’s right to intervene at the start of the month.

On Monday, bowing to the reality on the ground, Kiev’s leadership announced Ukrainian forces were being pulled out to spare them and their families further Russian threats. A few hours later many were already on their way out.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-base-idUSBREA2N09J20140324
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Cypress said:
So you and Bigdog are completely ignorant about the events that transpired in 2014.

The Ukrainian army basically gave up Crimea without a fight.
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Armed conflict in eastern Ukraine erupted in early 2014 following Russia’s annexation of Crimea. The previous year, protests in Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, against Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych’s decision to reject a deal for greater economic integration with the European Union (EU) were met with a violent crackdown by state security forces. The protests widened, escalating the conflict, and President Yanukovych fled the country in February 2014.

One month later, in March 2014, Russian troops took control of the Ukrainian region of Crimea. Russian President Vladimir Putin cited the need to protect the rights of Russian citizens and Russian speakers in Crimea and southeast Ukraine. Russia then formally annexed the peninsula after Crimeans voted to join the Russian Federation in a disputed local referendum. The crisis heightened ethnic divisions, and two months later, pro-Russian separatists in the eastern Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk held their own independence referendums.

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Armed conflict in the regions quickly broke out between Russian-backed forces and the Ukrainian military. Russia denied military involvement, but both Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) reported the buildup of Russian troops and military equipment near Donetsk and Russian cross-border shelling immediately following Crimea’s annexation. The conflict transitioned to an active stalemate, with regular shelling and skirmishes occurring along frontlines separating Russian- and Ukrainian-controlled eastern border regions.
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https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ukraine

The Ukrainian war with Russia has been ongoing since it started in Crimea.
 
ExpressLane said:
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ukraine

The Ukrainian war with Russia has been ongoing since it started in Crimea.
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So you and Bigdog admit to being wrong about the events that transpired in Crimea in 2014.

After giving up Crimea without a fight in 2014, the Ukrainians had to prove they were willing to train their army to fight, and to prove their ranks weren't infested with pro-Russian collaborators and constituencies.

That process was going to take a while. We weren't just going to give them Abrams tanks and Apache helicopters without being sure they were actually going to fight to defend their country, and until we were convinced the Ukrainian Army wasn't riddled with pro-Russian elements
 
Bigdog thinks Obama should have done a massive commitment of US military resources and American credibility in 2014, to people who weren't even willing to fight the Russians.


"When Russian troops invaded Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in February 2014, the Ukrainian military forces on the strategic peninsula in the Black Sea mostly melted away. But thousands of Ukrainian troops surrendered—and many of them defected."


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...n-army-may-have-destroyed-it/?sh=66e06c449cec
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Cypress said:
So you and Bigdog admit to being wrong about the events that transpired in Crimea in 2014.

After giving up Crimea without a fight in 2014, the Ukrainians had to prove they were willing to train their army to fight, and to prove their ranks weren't infested with pro-Russian collaborators and constituencies.

That process was going to take a while. We weren't just going to give them Abrams tanks and Apache helicopters without being sure they were actually going to fight to defend their country, and until we were convinced the Ukrainian Army wasn't riddled with pro-Russian elements
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Are you really that dumb. Ukraine has never ceded Crimea to Russia and the fight with Russia has been on going since Russia invaded in 2014. Biden wanted to give Zelenski a ride out of town. Zelenski shame him into helping. If it wasn't for the Javelins Trump sent Ukraine the Russians would be eating caviar in Kiev. What Changed between the Obama the Biden administrations? Did they suddenly replace the population with fighters? No. Trump sent weapons not blankets.
 
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ExpressLane said:
Are you really that dumb. Ukraine has never ceded Crimea to Russia and the fight with Russia has been on going since Russia invaded in 2014. Biden wanted to give Zelenski a ride out of town. Zelenski shame him into helping. If it wasn't for the Javelins Trump sent Ukraine the Russians would be eating caviar in Kiev. What Changed between the Obama the Biden administrations? Did they suddenly replace the population with fighters? No. Trump sent weapons not blankets.
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Your Buddy Bigdog made Crimea 2014 the focus of the debate, not me.

Words and intentions don't mean anything.

Only actions do.

In 2014, Ukraine didn't even try to defend Crimea. Thousands of it's soldiers melted away, surrendered, or defected without firing a shot. Obviously, at that time Ukraine was riddled with pro-Russian collaborators.

It would have been stupid as shit in 2014 for an American president to start organizing military aid airlifts and put US credibility on the line for an Army that was walking away from a fight.

When you saw the Afghan National Army run away from fighting the Taliban in 2021, did you think the best idea was to start airlifting more high tech American weaponry to the rapidly fading Afghan Army?


It took a process over a number of years for us to trust the Ukrainians to genuinely commit their army to fighting and defending the nation. They were never even really united until the Russian invasion of 2022.
 
Cypress said:
Thousands.
And they gave up Crimea basically without firing a shot.



It would have been stupid as shit for Obama to commit to airlifting our military resources and committing our credibility to a conflict the Ukrainians themselves weren't willing to fight.

In 2014, Ukraine was much more divided; pro-Russian factions and constituencies were widespread in Crimea. Russia's 2022 invasion was the catalyst that really united Ukrainians.
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"offering no armed resistance " ... because they were UNARMED.

It was a surprise sneak attack. Weapons are locked in an armory, not laying around the barracks. Obviously, you never served in Combat Arms. Most of those troops were probably "support" not "combat" soldiers.

Thousands? ... 2 or 3 thousand unarmed, overwhelmed, and forced to surrender or retreat.

Obama could have provided air support and weapons. You're rewrite of history is as bad as your Russian Delusion.

Still in Donbass DEnial. Those soldiers fought fiercely and Obama abandoned them. YOU ARE ALL OUT OF EXCUSES.
 
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Bigdog said:
"offering no armed resistance " ... because they were UNARMED.

It was a surprise sneak attack. Weapons are locked in an armory, not laying around the barracks. Obviously, you never served in Combat Arms. Most of those troops were probably "support" not "combat" soldiers.

Thousands? ... 2 or 3 thousand unarmed, overwhelmed, and forced to surrender or retreat.

Obama could have provided air support and weapons. You're rewrite of history is as bad as your Russian Delusion.

Still in Donbass DEnial. Those soldiers fought fiercely and Obama abandoned them. YOU ARE ALL OUT OF EXCUSES.
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You keep changing your story, that is a sign of someone who posts in bad faith.

You were the one who made Crimea the focus of Obama's policy, and you incorrectly insinuated there were no Ukrainian armed forces in Crimea.
 
"You threw down an iron curtain on us, we did not want this, your loss.....we are more than fine without you"
Russia to the West
 
Cypress said:
You keep changing your story, that is a sign of someone who posts in bad faith.

You were the one who made Crimea the focus of Obama's policy, and you incorrectly insinuated there were no Ukrainian armed forces in Crimea.
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Wrong, I knew it was a small unarmed force, and now you agree.

Ummm ... Obama was president in 2014. So what's your issue?
 
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Cypress said:
You keep changing your story, that is a sign of someone who posts in bad faith.

You were the one who made Crimea the focus of Obama's policy, and you incorrectly insinuated there were no Ukrainian armed forces in Crimea.
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And you said Ukraine offered no armed resistance. And you were wrong...again.
 
archives said:
Work harder to insure Trump and the likes of Jordan win in 2024
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It wont take much if any work at all. Biden has already done plenty of work to assure trump waltzes right back into the Whitehouse with relative ease. Many thanks, we couldnt have done it without him! :cool:
 
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