Don't ask, don't tell

Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY!Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY! Yurt is NOT GAY!
 
its still funny to know that you, a supposedly grown man, spend as much time as you do searching out four year old posts from me...

If you had shown that level of commitment and intensity to a military career instead of avoiding putting yourself in harm's way, you might have been able to avoid that coward moniker.
 
What's really ironic is you logging on to boards where you've been perm-banned to check your status over and over, then harping on me for conducting a search that took little effort. :lol:
 
I insulted YOU... and I happened to believe that you fit that description.

nothing you've done lately has caused me to alter that opinion.
You keep lying about it, but Jim has your admission of guilt archived over at DP. Too bad you can't log on and see it, Ike. :)
 
You keep lying about it, but Jim has your admission of guilt archived over at DP. Too bad you can't log on and see it, Ike. :)

I'm not lying about anything. Anything I ever wrote to you on this topic has always been designed as an insult of YOU... and you were clearly insulted and angered... so my little verbal arrow hit its target. voila!

now why don't you and your gay alter ego get a room!:pke:
 
hello boys and girls,

I had an opportunity for a little internet access and some rest and thought id see what was going on. I figured i might shed some light on this issue.

Some of you have a small understanding of why DADT exists, and some of you are asking the right questions, just not getting the best of answers.

In terms of cohesiveness and morale. There are a vast number of jobs in the military, called MOS's, (Military Occupational Specialty), as most of you might imagine, MOST jobs in the military are not combat arm related. Most of them range from mechanics to logistics, administration, and the like.. in addition to many jobs especially from the branches of the Air Force and the Navy that are not even directly in-country combat related. It isnt that these MOS's are not vital, its actually just the opposite, these jobs are all vital and necessary to the defense of the country.

Having gays openly serve in these MOS capacities would probably not cause any disruptions.. and i say openly because that is what DADT directly deals with. There are a multitude of homosexual Americans proudly serving their nation in the military right now, and no one has stopped them from serving their country honorably. The policy just keeps them from being openly gay, meaning telling their fellow service members that they are homosexual, acting or demonstrating homosexual behavior outwardly.. this doesnt mean they are acting like homosexual porn stars or attacking other military members, or describing homosexual acts during formation.. it may just be having their significant other pick them up from work and kissing their partner who is of the same sex on the mouth for others to see. Something that any straight couple in the military can do.

And if that service member was a logistical specialist or an aircraft mechanic, or a administrative person,.. a data networker or any of the other vast array of non-combat related jobs.. it most likely would have no effect on the cohesiveness of that unit, or the morale.. like a previous person said earlier that plenty of people work with gay people with no problem.

However, most people in their jobs... do not serve in combat. The dynamic of having to serve with a homosexual, regardless of what bias or anything else that exists as a norm in the country, having to serve with people without a choice of who they are, and requiring a tremendous amount of trust between them under extremely stressful burdens, and within entirely unnatural intimate situations creates an entirely different set of circumstances... circumstances that deal directly with the freedom and life of a nations citizenry that depend on those individuals to protect them and their families. Its one of the reasons why women are not in infantry ground units in combat.

That is a specific group targeted, and they are not allowed to even join infantry units... oddly enough one of the reasons for this is that having an American male watch a female get her face shot up, and seeing her figure lying dead in the heat of battle causes the unit to lose focus, the ability to remain in the fight.. this was attested too first hand by the Israeli military.. who found that upon seeing the mangling of a wounded female soldier during combat led them to make mistakes in order to try and save her life, or avenge her death. It is a result of a nations culture, of the way a woman is portrayed in our society... the giver of life.. the rearer of children.. mom's.. daughters.. it has been proven and accepted that having a woman in a combat unit can cause and does cause issues that affect the combat effectiveness of said unit. Is it sexist to keep women out of infantry units? A simple minded person might believe so.. but upon a deeper investigation the issues are very complex. The same is true for DADT.

These are units that are put directly infront of the enemy on the ground, each member of this unit has the obligation to the life of the other members of the unit... and not in a fanciful, "looking out for my buddy" kind of way, but rather directly responsible for the lives while the small arms, mortars, and rpg's are flying. The smallest of mistakes, the smallest amount of distrust, of division.. costs people their lives.

The cohesiveness and morale of these types of combat units is extraordinarily important to the nation, and is above and beyond any type of assumed rights or equality. This is why if you cant meet minimum physical requirements, you cannot serve in these capacities. If you wish to grow a beard and have individual liberties like long hair and other very minute expressions of independence, you cannot serve in these capacities. If youre handicap, you cannot serve in these capacities. You do not retain the rights of a civilian in terms of personal freedom or even constitutional protections as simple as freedom of speech.

The reasons for this is obvious. So in order to serve, their are a multitude of discriminatory obstacles that anyone attempting to join must pass, and make no mistake, there are plenty of one eyed Americans who wish to serve the country in the military and are denied off hand. Discrimination is required, its not new, and not only directed at several specific groups, but it has to be in order to provide the security required for the country.. especially during times of war.

It is THESE Marines, Soldiers, Airmen, and Sailors that the policy is meant to protect. And it is a protection. Its a protection or insulation from distraction, distrust, and individualism that can lead to problems of cohesion and morale.. of which the consequences can be deadly.. and can have effects on this nations security. Its simply denying the possibility for problems to occur where the importance of the issue to the effectiveness of these units combat ability is not related. Basically, an infantry unit needs to keep focused on its ability to defeat and kill its enemies, not whether their platoon commander is keeping one of his troops from taking point because of some sexual orientation. They dont need rumors that infect a unit and deny trust do to sexual orientation. These distractions and divisions are dangerous. And so although you can be gay, and be a grunt, and do your job flawlessly, you can also do that without anyone knowing youre gay, and even in the slightest possibly causing any of these problems. Its also why their are regulations against adultry, fraternization, and other codes of conduct. Its not because there is a religious connotation to not cheating on your wife... its an attempt to keep behaviors in line with a code of conduct that leads to a focused existence that exemplifies honor and doing the right thing.. which invariably leads to trust and camaraderie and elevates a units combat effectiveness.

Is this a correct outlook? Some say it is, some say it isnt. But these are thought process's behind DADT. Can combat units still be effective and allow openly homosexual members within it? That is the most pressing question for DADT... that is really the only question that matters because lives are directly at risk, and those lives are the ones standing between most of you and those who would attempt to destroy us. Such a protection or insulation that is discriminatory as are many others would appear to have absolute validity, and whats more important is that its not as simple as a policy being anti-homosexual... its an issue that deals with life and death at the most serious and detail oriented level.

Im not going to suggest that it is right or wrong, ive heard testimonies through the media over the years of combat veterans who's squad or platoon knew they were gay and had no problem, as well as testimonies from homosexuals serving in combat roles that said that if they ever would have told anyone about their sexual orientation that they felt they wouldve been killed at the most extreme or beaten senseless at the least.. so to suggest that its just a matter of switching a policy or something is to try and make this issue too dumbed down for its importance and complexities... not to mention that this is not just an intellectual exercise in practice, meaning this isnt just about people discussing what they feel is an injustice that needs too be righted.. we actually have men and women on the ground in combat.. right this second... and all the while.. more men and women are training to get into the same combat.. right this second.

Anyway.. time for me to rack out. Just for the record.. I am a United States Marine.. serving with an infantry unit in Afghanistan... right this second.

Semper Fidelis,

SR
Semper Fi, Marine.
 
hello boys and girls,

I had an opportunity for a little internet access and some rest and thought id see what was going on. I figured i might shed some light on this issue.

Some of you have a small understanding of why DADT exists, and some of you are asking the right questions, just not getting the best of answers.

In terms of cohesiveness and morale. There are a vast number of jobs in the military, called MOS's, (Military Occupational Specialty), as most of you might imagine, MOST jobs in the military are not combat arm related. Most of them range from mechanics to logistics, administration, and the like.. in addition to many jobs especially from the branches of the Air Force and the Navy that are not even directly in-country combat related. It isnt that these MOS's are not vital, its actually just the opposite, these jobs are all vital and necessary to the defense of the country.

Having gays openly serve in these MOS capacities would probably not cause any disruptions.. and i say openly because that is what DADT directly deals with. There are a multitude of homosexual Americans proudly serving their nation in the military right now, and no one has stopped them from serving their country honorably. The policy just keeps them from being openly gay, meaning telling their fellow service members that they are homosexual, acting or demonstrating homosexual behavior outwardly.. this doesnt mean they are acting like homosexual porn stars or attacking other military members, or describing homosexual acts during formation.. it may just be having their significant other pick them up from work and kissing their partner who is of the same sex on the mouth for others to see. Something that any straight couple in the military can do.

And if that service member was a logistical specialist or an aircraft mechanic, or a administrative person,.. a data networker or any of the other vast array of non-combat related jobs.. it most likely would have no effect on the cohesiveness of that unit, or the morale.. like a previous person said earlier that plenty of people work with gay people with no problem.

However, most people in their jobs... do not serve in combat. The dynamic of having to serve with a homosexual, regardless of what bias or anything else that exists as a norm in the country, having to serve with people without a choice of who they are, and requiring a tremendous amount of trust between them under extremely stressful burdens, and within entirely unnatural intimate situations creates an entirely different set of circumstances... circumstances that deal directly with the freedom and life of a nations citizenry that depend on those individuals to protect them and their families. Its one of the reasons why women are not in infantry ground units in combat.

That is a specific group targeted, and they are not allowed to even join infantry units... oddly enough one of the reasons for this is that having an American male watch a female get her face shot up, and seeing her figure lying dead in the heat of battle causes the unit to lose focus, the ability to remain in the fight.. this was attested too first hand by the Israeli military.. who found that upon seeing the mangling of a wounded female soldier during combat led them to make mistakes in order to try and save her life, or avenge her death. It is a result of a nations culture, of the way a woman is portrayed in our society... the giver of life.. the rearer of children.. mom's.. daughters.. it has been proven and accepted that having a woman in a combat unit can cause and does cause issues that affect the combat effectiveness of said unit. Is it sexist to keep women out of infantry units? A simple minded person might believe so.. but upon a deeper investigation the issues are very complex. The same is true for DADT.

These are units that are put directly infront of the enemy on the ground, each member of this unit has the obligation to the life of the other members of the unit... and not in a fanciful, "looking out for my buddy" kind of way, but rather directly responsible for the lives while the small arms, mortars, and rpg's are flying. The smallest of mistakes, the smallest amount of distrust, of division.. costs people their lives.

The cohesiveness and morale of these types of combat units is extraordinarily important to the nation, and is above and beyond any type of assumed rights or equality. This is why if you cant meet minimum physical requirements, you cannot serve in these capacities. If you wish to grow a beard and have individual liberties like long hair and other very minute expressions of independence, you cannot serve in these capacities. If youre handicap, you cannot serve in these capacities. You do not retain the rights of a civilian in terms of personal freedom or even constitutional protections as simple as freedom of speech.

The reasons for this is obvious. So in order to serve, their are a multitude of discriminatory obstacles that anyone attempting to join must pass, and make no mistake, there are plenty of one eyed Americans who wish to serve the country in the military and are denied off hand. Discrimination is required, its not new, and not only directed at several specific groups, but it has to be in order to provide the security required for the country.. especially during times of war.

It is THESE Marines, Soldiers, Airmen, and Sailors that the policy is meant to protect. And it is a protection. Its a protection or insulation from distraction, distrust, and individualism that can lead to problems of cohesion and morale.. of which the consequences can be deadly.. and can have effects on this nations security. Its simply denying the possibility for problems to occur where the importance of the issue to the effectiveness of these units combat ability is not related. Basically, an infantry unit needs to keep focused on its ability to defeat and kill its enemies, not whether their platoon commander is keeping one of his troops from taking point because of some sexual orientation. They dont need rumors that infect a unit and deny trust do to sexual orientation. These distractions and divisions are dangerous. And so although you can be gay, and be a grunt, and do your job flawlessly, you can also do that without anyone knowing youre gay, and even in the slightest possibly causing any of these problems. Its also why their are regulations against adultry, fraternization, and other codes of conduct. Its not because there is a religious connotation to not cheating on your wife... its an attempt to keep behaviors in line with a code of conduct that leads to a focused existence that exemplifies honor and doing the right thing.. which invariably leads to trust and camaraderie and elevates a units combat effectiveness.

Is this a correct outlook? Some say it is, some say it isnt. But these are thought process's behind DADT. Can combat units still be effective and allow openly homosexual members within it? That is the most pressing question for DADT... that is really the only question that matters because lives are directly at risk, and those lives are the ones standing between most of you and those who would attempt to destroy us. Such a protection or insulation that is discriminatory as are many others would appear to have absolute validity, and whats more important is that its not as simple as a policy being anti-homosexual... its an issue that deals with life and death at the most serious and detail oriented level.

Im not going to suggest that it is right or wrong, ive heard testimonies through the media over the years of combat veterans who's squad or platoon knew they were gay and had no problem, as well as testimonies from homosexuals serving in combat roles that said that if they ever would have told anyone about their sexual orientation that they felt they wouldve been killed at the most extreme or beaten senseless at the least.. so to suggest that its just a matter of switching a policy or something is to try and make this issue too dumbed down for its importance and complexities... not to mention that this is not just an intellectual exercise in practice, meaning this isnt just about people discussing what they feel is an injustice that needs too be righted.. we actually have men and women on the ground in combat.. right this second... and all the while.. more men and women are training to get into the same combat.. right this second.

Anyway.. time for me to rack out. Just for the record.. I am a United States Marine.. serving with an infantry unit in Afghanistan... right this second.

Semper Fidelis,

SR

First of all, thank you for your service.

I think this does boil down to a matter of what is right and what is wrong. I understand the point you are making concerning combat troops. But the same arguments were used when they were ordered to desegregate the military. There were plenty of people who said that it would disrupt the combat effectiveness of the units. There were plenty who said they could not (or would not) trust their lives to someone of another race. I am not equating homosexuality with the segregated society of the past per se. I am comparing the claims made against fixing both situations.
 
Hello again,

Winterborn - To a certain extent you are correct. But there is little validation to the argument between race and sexual orientation in promoting a stable argument. Meaning, just because there was an argument that unit cohesion would be affected by introducing blacks into infantry units doesnt translate to addressing the concerns in dealing with homosexuality. Just like the same argument is made for women serving in combat units... They arent related other than to say that they shared or do share the same kind of concerns.

Thats not a valid reason to take any action since, its just a shared obstacle to the outcome you seek, but it really ends there , not really any demonstration or proof of a valid solution.

Im also not totally in agreement that the claims are similar in dealing with the necessity to "fix" the situation. Right now any homosexual who determines that the military is the life they want to lead... can do so.

SR
 
I'm not lying about anything. Anything I ever wrote to you on this topic has always been designed as an insult of YOU... and you were clearly insulted and angered... so my little verbal arrow hit its target. voila!

now why don't you and your gay alter ego get a room!:pke:

It is absolutely a lie.

With regards to the "alter ego", that is your fellow liberal poster Topspin with yet another of his clones. He's a queer enabler like you, and you two will get along swimmingly. :)
 
It is absolutely a lie.

With regards to the "alter ego", that is your fellow liberal poster Topspin with yet another of his clones. He's a queer enabler like you, and you two will get along swimmingly. :)

its amazing, he gets a "vacation" for six months from this board and comes back like he never left. talk about obsessive. i can understand your anger with him because his insults were about your kids and anal sex, but is there ever a time to let it go? i mean, he could leave this board for 10 years and come back as if nothing changed. his obsession and hatred cannot be changed unless he wants it.
 
its amazing, he gets a "vacation" for six months from this board and comes back like he never left. talk about obsessive. i can understand your anger with him because his insults were about your kids and anal sex, but is there ever a time to let it go? i mean, he could leave this board for 10 years and come back as if nothing changed. his obsession and hatred cannot be changed unless he wants it.

Its not in my nature to let something go unless the offending party repents.
 
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