plane hits building in Austin

[WinterBorn]

The problem is the definition of "income".

For example, capital gains. In the jurisdiction where I live 50% of capital gains is tax exempt. A wealthy person could buy a number of buildings with a minimum down payment and periodically sell one and pay 1/2 the tax on that "income" that a person working at a regular job earning the same amount of money would pay. (Although the housing market busted real estate was a winner for many, many years.)

Another thing is selling ones home. That's tax free. Why? Why should the person who can afford to buy their own home be allowed to take the profits tax-free when the poor renter gets the shaft? If all money coming in was classified as income it would be a different story.

People look for run down houses, move in, renovate them and then sell them at a profit. No tax. So, we have two carpenters. One goes to work every day for a company and pays payroll taxes. The other, because they have money, buy a run down house, fix it up, then sell. The house buyer pays no tax. Nothing. Even though he worked renovating his house and is being paid for his work through selling his house all his money is tax free. What is fair about that?

Then some people propose a consumption tax but no tax on income. Again, let's take two examples. Bill and John. Both work at the same company earning the same salary. Bill is single and saves $20,000. John has a family and spends that money supporting his family. Every time John buys something he is paying twice the amount of tax because Bill never paid any tax on his income and the government requires a certain amount of money to operate. The roads have to be fixed but Bill hasn't paid any money towards road maintenance so the consumption tax John pays has to cover his share and Bill's share.

Years pass and Bill's $20,000 has grown due to receiving interest plus the other money he has saved and the interest on that. There will come a point where Bill's nest egg will produce a decent enough return to retire on. Then he starts to pay taxes as he uses that money. John can't retire because he paid taxes all those years while Bill's money collected interest. In other words John loaned Bill the equivalent of the taxes every year, at no interest, while Bill's money grew. Is that fair?

The only fair way is to tax all monies received at the time they're received. That way everyone pays their fair share of government costs.



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The fair way would be to tax the money when people spend it. Let the rich guy pay 23% tax on his new mercedes. Let the middle class guy pay 25% on his new Tahoe. And let the poor people pay no tax on the used VW they buy.

Plus you would get tax dollars from drug dealers, hookers, and people who work for cash under the table.

 

[WinterBorn]

And We the People complain about how the wealthy get more tax breaks and have more avenues of financial opportunity, we get told over and over day in and day out that no matter how wrong it may be...the bottom line is that LIFE IS UNFAIR...and that people need to move beyond that SIMPLE FACT and GET OVER IT.

You want life to be fair? Then let's start by making life fair for the poorest with the most to lose before we worry about some trust fund baby whining because she can't buy the new Bentley until next year because her taxes are too high.

As far as taxes are concerned, the lower incomes are treated the best. They lose little or none of their income to taxes.

So that is more than fair.

 

[WinterBorn]

Hell, when I want food from McDonalds they make me pay...


WAAAAA....! I worked hard for that money, I dont want to have to pay for food!

Now here I thought you actually wanted to discuss an issue. But instead, you just want to make noise.

No one is expecting anything for free. I just expect to pay the same basic rate that others pay.

I don't mind paying for my McDonalds. But don't charge me $50 for a Big Mac and then give away Big Macs to other people. Especially when (as in the tax situation) we are not given a choice.

 

[zappasguitar]

As far as taxes are concerned, the lower incomes are treated the best. They lose little or none of their income to taxes.

So that is more than fair.

In YOUR opinion it is more than fair. The poor may not agree.

The poorest may lose little or none of their income to taxes, but at the end of the day they have little to nothing left over for discretionary spending either.

The wealthiest may be taxed at a higher rate, but let's not portray them as being reduced to begging on a street corner for food because of that higher tax rate.

Would I trade losing little or none of my income to taxes for a more comfortable life, even if it meant being taxed at the highest rate in this country?

YOU BET. IN. A. SECOND.

 

[WinterBorn]

In YOUR opinion it is more than fair. The poor may not agree.

The poorest may lose little or none of their income to taxes, but at the end of the day they have little to nothing left over for discretionary spending either.

The wealthiest may be taxed at a higher rate, but let's not portray them as being reduced to begging on a street corner for food because of that higher tax rate.

Would I trade losing little or none of my income to taxes for a more comfortable life, even if it meant being taxed at the highest rate in this country?

YOU BET. IN. A. SECOND.

The taxation is not responsible for the rich being rich or the poor being poor. Most of the rich people got that way by busting their ass and working long hours.

We are not talking about how to make rich people happy or poor people happy. We are talking about what is a fair method of taxation. The point of taxation is not to make one group more comfortable without their having earned the money they want to make them more comfortable.

 

[WinterBorn]

Fair is not an opinion based thing. It is about equality.

We agree that not allowing gays to marry is not fair. Why? Because one group is treated differently than another.

So when it comes to taxation, shouldn't the same criteria apply? Treat everyone the same?

 

[zappasguitar]

Fair is not an opinion based thing. It is about equality.

We agree that not allowing gays to marry is not fair. Why? Because one group is treated differently than another.

So when it comes to taxation, shouldn't the same criteria apply? Treat everyone the same?

In an ideal world, the same criteria should apply. But as we've been told at one time or another, the world isn't fair.

In an ideal world, businesses would do the right thing and wouldn't pass along the taxes they pay for their ingredients/parts/supplies to the consumer.

 

[Timshel]

Another thing is selling ones home. That's tax free. Why? Why should the person who can afford to buy their own home be allowed to take the profits tax-free when the poor renter gets the shaft? If all money coming in was classified as income it would be a different story.

People look for run down houses, move in, renovate them and then sell them at a profit. No tax. So, we have two carpenters. One goes to work every day for a company and pays payroll taxes. The other, because they have money, buy a run down house, fix it up, then sell. The house buyer pays no tax. Nothing. Even though he worked renovating his house and is being paid for his work through selling his house all his money is tax free. What is fair about that?

You have to pay taxes on income from flipping or rehabbing a house. You can roll it over, but then you are not realizing any income.

Then some people propose a consumption tax but no tax on income. Again, let's take two examples. Bill and John. Both work at the same company earning the same salary. Bill is single and saves $20,000. John has a family and spends that money supporting his family. Every time John buys something he is paying twice the amount of tax because Bill never paid any tax on his income and the government requires a certain amount of money to operate. The roads have to be fixed but Bill hasn't paid any money towards road maintenance so the consumption tax John pays has to cover his share and Bill's share.

How did Bill avoid paying any taxes? He has to consume something.

 

[Taichiliberal]

I did a google for "stacks manifesto" and this was the first website that came up with the (allegedly) complete, undedited transcript:

http://anotherblackconservative.blogspot.com/2010/02/joseph-andrew-stacks-manifesto-suicide.html

What I got from it was this. Stark essentially tried to scam the system "legally" using all the loopholes and such that wealthy business folk use. He failed, and the IRS nailed him. So he lost it.

His "manifesto" contains a lot of accurate rants against our taxation system and most likely both sides of the political fence will associate blame to the other. But what most people might overlook are the reality gaps in Starks rant. I don't buy his poor college student tale for a minute.....and he fails to tell how he could afford his solid middle to upper middle income house, the flying lessons and then the plane if he was under constant economic dire straits.

Bottom line: for YEARS there have been people across the USA who REFUSE to pay the IRS taxes they deem unfair. They officially register and then fight like hell to pay what they consider fair. I don't hear about all of them going to jail, as I catch their act on Pacific Broadcast Radio and occasionally NPR. So Stark's actions are NOT justified, but much of his angst is.

 

[apple0154]

The fair way would be to tax the money when people spend it. Let the rich guy pay 23% tax on his new mercedes. Let the middle class guy pay 25% on his new Tahoe. And let the poor people pay no tax on the used VW they buy.

Plus you would get tax dollars from drug dealers, hookers, and people who work for cash under the table.

That I disagree with. The tax on everything should be the same. Once the tax has been paid on income one shouldn't be penalized on how they spend their money.

As I explained earlier if taxes are only paid when spending the money the person holding on to the money gets to use it to generate additional income without having paid taxes on it.

 

[apple0154]

The taxation is not responsible for the rich being rich or the poor being poor. Most of the rich people got that way by busting their ass and working long hours.

Now that is funny! If busting ones ass and working long hours is the secret why aren't more people doing it? Where is the instruction book? How many hours are in a multi-millionaire's day compared to the amount of hours in a minimum wage-earner's day?

Other than winning a lottery or receiving an inheritance invariably every rich person became rich off the labor of others. Luck and circumstance also played a major part but who wants to forgo the ego trip of saying they worked harder than anyone else?


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The taxation is not responsible for the rich being rich or the poor being poor. Most of the rich people got that way by busting their ass and working long hours.

We are not talking about how to make rich people happy or poor people happy. We are talking about what is a fair method of taxation. The point of taxation is not to make one group more comfortable without their having earned the money they want to make them more comfortable.

 

[apple0154]

Fair is not an opinion based thing. It is about equality.

We agree that not allowing gays to marry is not fair. Why? Because one group is treated differently than another.

So when it comes to taxation, shouldn't the same criteria apply? Treat everyone the same?

But the same isn't applied. The plane guy made that very clear. He wanted to be an "entrepreneur". Why? So he could take advantage of the tax breaks.

Why do you think people want to go into business for themselves? If everything was equal, if hard work and hours were the determining factor, we'd be overrun with rich people.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Now that is funny! If busting ones ass and working long hours is the secret why aren't more people doing it? Where is the instruction book? How many hours are in a multi-millionaire's day compared to the amount of hours in a minimum wage-earner's day?

Other than winning a lottery or receiving an inheritance invariably every rich person became rich off the labor of others. Luck and circumstance also played a major part but who wants to forgo the ego trip of saying they worked harder than anyone else?


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You're a dumbass.
Every dime of profit is made by the labor of someone.

Face it apple; STAR TREK is just a movie, not a documentary.

 

[apple0154]

You have to pay taxes on income from flipping or rehabbing a house. You can roll it over, but then you are not realizing any income.

If one declares it their main residence there are no taxes to be paid. The income is realized by the profit from selling the home. One carpenter spends a year renovating the house instead of going to a regular job. Then he sells the home. He makes 50 or 75 thousand tax free. The carpenter who went to work also made 50 or, if lucky, 75 thousand but has to pay tax and other deductions on that.

How did Bill avoid paying any taxes? He has to consume something.

Yes, something, but a lot less than a family so he gets to use the money that should have been paid for taxes. He gets to use the government services while collecting the interest off the money he should have paid to use those services.

 

[Timshel]

Now that is funny! If busting ones ass and working long hours is the secret why aren't more people doing it?

The same reason more people don't diet or exercise. It's not easy.

There is more things than just working hard. Being able to defer consumption is necessary to build capital. Also, most self made men have taken some risk. That is, you are not likely to make it on wages.

Where is the instruction book? How many hours are in a multi-millionaire's day compared to the amount of hours in a minimum wage-earner's day?

Most entrepreneurs spend far more time working than the minimum wage earner. Further, usually the minimum wage earner has invested very little if any effort in developing their skills.

 

[Timshel]

If one declares it their main residence there are no taxes to be paid. The income is realized by the profit from selling the home. One carpenter spends a year renovating the house instead of going to a regular job. Then he sells the home. He makes 50 or 75 thousand tax free. The carpenter who went to work also made 50 or, if lucky, 75 thousand but has to pay tax and other deductions on that.

He'd have to stay in it for two years. The IRS may decide it is investment property or a business. Since it's his only income, I would guess the IRS would treat it as a business. So the guy would pay regular income plus self-employment taxes.

Yes, something, but a lot less than a family so he gets to use the money that should have been paid for taxes. He gets to use the government services while collecting the interest off the money he should have paid to use those services.

Four people consume more in government services than one. John is not paying Bill's share. He's paying for his families share.

 

[WinterBorn]

In an ideal world, the same criteria should apply. But as we've been told at one time or another, the world isn't fair.

In an ideal world, businesses would do the right thing and wouldn't pass along the taxes they pay for their ingredients/parts/supplies to the consumer.

Yes, we have all been told that the world isn't fair. So you are suggesting that we should just accept that? From now on SM should just say "...as we've been told at one time or another, the world isn't fair." when the subject of gay marriage comes up?

Life is not fair, but when the gov't can make it fair, it should. It certainly should promote unfair practices just to make people feel better about poor people.




As far as the ideal world and business, you are absolutely wrong. The taxes are part of the cost of doing business. Just like the payroll is and the benefits for the employees. Expecting the businesses to eat the taxes in order to keep prices low is ridiculous. It will also mean that employees don't get raises.

If you want to get upset about business taxes being passed on to consumers, complain to the gov't. They know that is exactly what happens. They make a big show about passing more taxes on businesses as a publicity stunt, and the ignorant public swallows it hook, line & sinker.

 

[WinterBorn]

That I disagree with. The tax on everything should be the same. Once the tax has been paid on income one shouldn't be penalized on how they spend their money.

As I explained earlier if taxes are only paid when spending the money the person holding on to the money gets to use it to generate additional income without having paid taxes on it.

What I was describing is the Fair Tax. There is no tax on income, but on consumption. No one gets any taxes taken out of their pay.

Also, the person holding on to their money and generating income would be stimulating the economy in ways that the stimulus will never touch. They will be creating jobs, which in turn will create consumers who will be paying taxes.

Every purchase of new items will be taxed at 23%. Whether its a company, a church, or an individual making the purchases.

 

[WinterBorn]

Now that is funny! If busting ones ass and working long hours is the secret why aren't more people doing it? Where is the instruction book? How many hours are in a multi-millionaire's day compared to the amount of hours in a minimum wage-earner's day?

Other than winning a lottery or receiving an inheritance invariably every rich person became rich off the labor of others. Luck and circumstance also played a major part but who wants to forgo the ego trip of saying they worked harder than anyone else?


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There are countless examples of people working hard in school and staying focused and getting out of the ghetto and into a mansion.

Winning a lottery is extremely rare. People working for minimum wage usually don't have much education. The kids who work hard in school, stay focused on their studies can get enough scholarships, grants and student loans to get a good education.

Its about good choices, not so much luck and circumstances. I have many friends who were poorer than I was growing up and no smarter than I am. But they stuck to their studies and made it somewhere and have much more money than I do.

This idea that its all a crap shoot is designed to relieve people of any responsibility for their own successes in life.

 

[apple0154]

You're a dumbass.
Every dime of profit is made by the labor of someone.

Face it apple; STAR TREK is just a movie, not a documentary.

You mean my life-long dream of one day meeting an Orion babe is just an adolescent fantasy? But they told Captain Kirk no human male could resist a gal like Marta. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Marta.jpg

You really know how to crush a guy.