plane hits building in Austin

RStringfield said:
He'd have to stay in it for two years. The IRS may decide it is investment property or a business. Since it's his only income, I would guess the IRS would treat it as a business. So the guy would pay regular income plus self-employment taxes..
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If he didn't work at all. My example was to show the extreme. He could have had a part time job. The point is taxes are favored for the wealthy. Investments, capital gains, etc. Any money generated by money and not labor favors the wealthy.

Four people consume more in government services than one. John is not paying Bill's share. He's paying for his families share.
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Bill isn't paying anything no matter how one looks at it. He is benefiting from the use of that money, tax free.
 
WinterBorn said:
There are countless examples of people working hard in school and staying focused and getting out of the ghetto and into a mansion.

Winning a lottery is extremely rare. People working for minimum wage usually don't have much education. The kids who work hard in school, stay focused on their studies can get enough scholarships, grants and student loans to get a good education.

Its about good choices, not so much luck and circumstances. I have many friends who were poorer than I was growing up and no smarter than I am. But they stuck to their studies and made it somewhere and have much more money than I do.

This idea that its all a crap shoot is designed to relieve people of any responsibility for their own successes in life.
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How many people do you know with whom you grew up, went to school, etc. have become rich? Not comfortable. I mean extremely wealthy? Personally, I don't know very many. Maybe one guy who lucked out and became an actor. Maybe one gal who found her niche in clothes design.

If it was simply a matter of working hard I would know dozens of gals who made a small fortune in dress design but it doesn't work that way. It is mostly luck and circumstance.
 
apple0154 said:
How many people do you know with whom you grew up, went to school, etc. have become rich? Not comfortable. I mean extremely wealthy? Personally, I don't know very many. Maybe one guy who lucked out and became an actor. Maybe one gal who found her niche in clothes design.

If it was simply a matter of working hard I would know dozens of gals who made a small fortune in dress design but it doesn't work that way. It is mostly luck and circumstance.
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I guess we are talking about different levels of wealth. I don't know anyone who is rich like Bill Gates.

But I know a few dozen who retired early and live well.

Luck and circumstance may help, but the work is the basis for wealth.

By weath I am talking about having assets that they can live off of, or the ones who are taxed at a higher rate to pay for the ones on the lower end of the scale.

For future reference, there are 3 basic classes when talking about money. There are the poor, the middle class, and the wealthy.
 
apple0154 said:
You mean my life-long dream of one day meeting an Orion babe is just an adolescent fantasy? But they told Captain Kirk no human male could resist a gal like Marta. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Marta.jpg

You really know how to crush a guy. :(
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But unfortunetly, that is the gist of everyone of your arguments.
You want a Federation style government and you pray for replicators; but you really need to rejoin this reality.
 
WinterBorn said:
I guess we are talking about different levels of wealth. I don't know anyone who is rich like Bill Gates.

But I know a few dozen who retired early and live well.

Luck and circumstance may help, but the work is the basis for wealth.

By weath I am talking about having assets that they can live off of, or the ones who are taxed at a higher rate to pay for the ones on the lower end of the scale.

For future reference, there are 3 basic classes when talking about money. There are the poor, the middle class, and the wealthy.
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Just consider the people who receive help from their parents for a down payment on a house. Then there's those who never manage to save quite enough to buy their own home. The home buyer will, in all likelihood, be much more wealthy. Is it really fair? The person who pays rent all their life ends up with nothing.

It's things like that. Luck and circumstance that have the greatest impact.
 
apple0154 said:
If he didn't work at all. My example was to show the extreme. He could have had a part time job. The point is taxes are favored for the wealthy. Investments, capital gains, etc. Any money generated by money and not labor favors the wealthy.
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He did not work at all so I would guess the IRS would treat his house sale as a business, since that is what it is.

If he has a part time job then he is going to pay taxes on that same as any other. I don't know the IRS might still consider his home sale a business if is his primary source of income.

Income on a capital gain is partly due to inflation. Taxing it at the same rate would not actually be equal treatment. Not saying the current CG rate makes it equal but...

apple0154 said:
Bill isn't paying anything no matter how one looks at it. He is benefiting from the use of that money, tax free.
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We already established that Bill pays something. If we assume his consumption levels are the same per person as that of John's household, then... Bill has paid his share. John pays his share and that of his family members, he does not pay Bill's share.
 
apple0154 said:
Just consider the people who receive help from their parents for a down payment on a house. Then there's those who never manage to save quite enough to buy their own home. The home buyer will, in all likelihood, be much more wealthy. Is it really fair? The person who pays rent all their life ends up with nothing.

It's things like that. Luck and circumstance that have the greatest impact.
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The fact that one person's parents help and one person's parents don't is not the fault or responsibility of the gov't. It is the responsibility of the gov't to make sure all its citizens are treated equally.

The help or no help with a downpayment for a home is not luck. Its that one set of parents worked hard to save money and one set may not have had the money or may not have saved the money.

If I take risks to earn more money and lose that money, I don't get any breaks. And I shouldn't. Because I took the risks for my own profit.
 
apple0154 said:
Just consider the people who receive help from their parents for a down payment on a house. Then there's those who never manage to save quite enough to buy their own home. The home buyer will, in all likelihood, be much more wealthy. Is it really fair? The person who pays rent all their life ends up with nothing.

It's things like that. Luck and circumstance that have the greatest impact.
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This kind of sentiment is so fucking childish, I can't even relate to it (and I'm pretty damned childish).
 
RStringfield said:
He did not work at all so I would guess the IRS would treat his house sale as a business, since that is what it is.

If he has a part time job then he is going to pay taxes on that same as any other. I don't know the IRS might still consider his home sale a business if is his primary source of income.

Income on a capital gain is partly due to inflation. Taxing it at the same rate would not actually be equal treatment. Not saying the current CG rate makes it equal but...

We already established that Bill pays something. If we assume his consumption levels are the same per person as that of John's household, then... Bill has paid his share. John pays his share and that of his family members, he does not pay Bill's share.
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Bill's share will never be paid until he spends that money if taxes were based on what you suggest. In the meantime he benefits from the interest off that money plus government services he has not yet paid for.
 
WinterBorn said:
The fact that one person's parents help and one person's parents don't is not the fault or responsibility of the gov't. It is the responsibility of the gov't to make sure all its citizens are treated equally.

The help or no help with a downpayment for a home is not luck. Its that one set of parents worked hard to save money and one set may not have had the money or may not have saved the money.

If I take risks to earn more money and lose that money, I don't get any breaks. And I shouldn't. Because I took the risks for my own profit.
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If it's not luck and circumstance to have parents who can help you what is it? What could the average person have done to ensure they would have parents who would help them? The answer, nothing. Yet, having ones home as soon as possible makes the biggest difference in the vast majority of ones financial future.

It is all about luck and circumstance. One job opening and two identical candidates. Same age. Same education. It could come down to the color of their shirt or some quip made during the interview that determined who got hired.
 
Yurt said:
i can't believe that

in my small town, 200K is middle class

in los angeles, 200K is starting out for professional degrees, well 120, but 200K is nothing in LA or NY
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Hell dude, median income in the US (which is the best indicator of middle class status) is like $42,000/yr household income. $60,000/year puts you in the top quartile.

You're speaking from a relative standpoint Yurt. In the small town I come from typical household income is less $40,000/year with both husband and wife working with the male knocking down about $25,000 and the wife working part time and bringing in about another $5,000 to $10,000. If you make $200,000 a year in that area....your wealthy.

Obviously that don't fly in Manhattan or Brentwood but those communities are outliers, on the high side, economically anyways.
 
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No one is above the law. From the president of a Fortune 500 company to a waiter at a local restaurant, everyone has to pay their fair share of income taxes.

Through the National Tax Defier Initiative, obedient taxpayers can rest assured that the United States will enforce the tax laws fully.

Although the Tax Division and the IRS have been effective in combating tax defier activity, the problem demands constant vigilance.

The National Tax Defier Initiatives' mission will be to ensure that we are using all of the tools in our enforcement arsenal.

Tax defiers do not meet their federal tax obligations and seek to transfer those obligations to their neighbor’s back.

The tax defier is not someone who has a legitimate or factual dispute about the amount of tax due.

The tax defier is not someone who is merely exercising his or her First Amendment rights to challenge the tax policy choices that Congress has made.

Instead, the tax defier is someone who rejects the legal foundation of the tax system, despite decades of legal precedent upholding the system’s constitutional and statutory validity, and who takes specific and concrete action to violate the law.

It is this tax defier conduct, which results in fraudulent claims, frivolous returns and bogus schemes, that threatens the foundation of our tax system and must be vigorously countered.

This activity not only wastes governmental investigative, administrative and judicial resources, but it also fundamentally undermines the public’s confidence in the tax system.
 
apple0154 said:
Bill's share will never be paid until he spends that money if taxes were based on what you suggest. In the meantime he benefits from the interest off that money plus government services he has not yet paid for.
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First off I am not a proponent of the fair tax. But you are wrong in your argument.

Bill has to spend has to survive. We have already established that. He can't save every dime. The only reason you gave for John spending more is that he has a family. Presumably, then the extra spending is proportional to the number of family members. The extra money John spends and therefore pays in taxes is for his family, not for Bill.

The income tax however unfairly requires Bill to subsidize John's extra family members.

If Bill is simply more thrifty than John, then this is a benefit to society. More thrift leads to greater capitalization and higher wages for all.
 
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