Health of Nations: Germany

[AnyOldIron]

History is sometimes very funny.

The Falklands "War" will probably be the last "war" the british ever execute on their own. The battle for a scant few non-descript islands of the coast of Nowhere. A sad footnote in the history of the British Empire.

The british victory over the Falklands is much like the American victory over Grenada .. and from this astounding victory Thatcher rode on to fame and glory.

I guess one could imagine a neccesity to fight a war over small lands that you call your own many miles from your own shores .. but I have a real hard time with it .. and I think it is a lesson the british should know more than anybody.

On the contrary, whether or not you like Thatcher, the Falklands Conflict demonstrates that Britain is not a spent force.

The invasion by the desperate right-wing junta was a simple case of naked aggression. In response Britain sailed a small expeditionary force across to the other side of the world, where said expeditionary force landed on the opposite side of the main island and yomped across to the capital, battering any opposition. All in a space of a few short weeks. In military terms, it was a remarkable achievement.

As for it being a sad footnote, remember that we gave our Empire away voluntarily. We retired undefeated, largely because of the expense of saving Europe twice in one lifetime, whilst paying extortionate overpayments to you Americans to finance it. Few in America seem to realise the extent of the fleecing job America did over Britain during World War II. Whilst we alone were fighting the evil of Naziism, America was making a huge profit out of our efforts. For which, as a nation, America should hang its head in shame.

Rule fucking Brittania!

 

[Socrtease]

On the contrary, whether or not you like Thatcher, the Falklands Conflict demonstrates that Britain is not a spent force.

The invasion by the desperate right-wing junta was a simple case of naked aggression. In response Britain sailed a small expeditionary force across to the other side of the world, where said expeditionary force landed on the opposite side of the main island and yomped across to the capital, battering any opposition. All in a space of a few short weeks. In military terms, it was a remarkable achievement.

As for it being a sad footnote, remember that we gave our Empire away voluntarily. We retired undefeated, largely because of the expense of saving Europe twice in one lifetime, whilst paying extortionate overpayments to you Americans to finance it. Few in America seem to realise the extent of the fleecing job America did over Britain during World War II. Whilst we alone were fighting the evil of Naziism, America was making a huge profit out of our efforts. For which, as a nation, America should hang its head in shame.

Rule fucking Brittania!

While I agree that America profited during the War early on, YOU did not save Europe the second time. You got your ass handed to you at Dunkirk and but for the stupidity of the Germans, should have been annihilated then and there. Hitler also made terrible blunders during the battle of britain. Without the US in the war, something that FDR wanted much earlier but silly ass isolationists in this country objected to, you could not have done more than MAYBE kept the Island free of Germans. Our industrial might and population base used to fight a war was the prime reason Germany lost. While I admire the brits, especially their almost devout alliance with the US, you oversell your position.

As to "giving away the empire voluntarily" I think the Indian's might object to your overly altruistic view of how you gave up your empire, and I KNOW the Irish would.

 

[AnyOldIron]

While I agree that America profited during the War early on, YOU did not save Europe the second time. You got your ass handed to you at Dunkirk and but for the stupidity of the Germans, should have been annihilated then and there. Hitler also made terrible blunders during the battle of britain.

That the enemy blunders in war doesn't detract from the success of the victor. It shows that the enemy erred yet we didn't.

I agree we underestimated the Nazis during the 'phoney war'.

But to suggest that Britain was 'saved' detracts from the truth. Britain had already 'saved' itself, and the free world, before America joined the war. The turning point was the Battle of Britain.

Let's put a little supposition together. Suppose the pilots of the RAF hadn't fought like lions and won. Imagine if the Nazis had knocked out the RAF, and crossed the channel. With the Royal Navy at the time the largest in the world, and with a good proportion of it in home dock, the Nazis would have captured this.

America would then be facing capable enemies on two sides, the Japanese on the Pacific coast, the Nazis on the Atlantic. Not a pretty picture. America would have been forced into a peace with Nazi Germany, to enable it to fight the Japanese.

In the meantime, the world's Jews, Gypsies, Socialists and homosexuals would have been exterminated, and the Nazi's would have been able to concentrate on defeating Russia.

But that didn't happen. The RAF prevented this.

Without the US in the war, something that FDR wanted much earlier but silly ass isolationists in this country objected to, you could not have done more than MAYBE kept the Island free of Germans.

Another American myth concerning WWII.

After the success in the Battle of Britain in October 1940 and before the Americans finally joined the war in December 1941 Britain might not have launched an invasion of mainland Europe, but we did take the war to the Nazis and the Axis powers across the globe. On land, in North and Central Africa, Norway and the Middle East, in the air over Europe and on the seas everywhere. To suggest that Britain was finished after the minor setback of the inevitable collapse of France and Dunkirk shows a deep underestimation of Britain as a fighting nation.

Our industrial might and population base used to fight a war was the prime reason Germany lost.

That is overselling your part in the German war. The setback that was the Battle of Britain forced Hitler to turn east too late in the year to reach Moscow before winter set in. The Soviets then mauled the German Army. Whilst American reinforcements expedited the reconquest of Europe, the battles that turned the tide against the Nazis were not American but British and Russian.

While I admire the brits, especially their almost devout alliance with the US, you oversell your position.

Pot, meet kettle.

As for our devoutness, we have in the last half century, had shockingly weak leaders. Including Thatcher. That will change.

As to "giving away the empire voluntarily" I think the Indian's might object to your overly altruistic view of how you gave up your empire, and I KNOW the Irish would.

I am sure that if we had been not been financially diasabled by two world wars, we would have been able to install reforms in India as a response to the uprisings and have crushed any violent rebellion. We succeeded in this in 1857. And as for Ireland, the internal issues of the British Isles is complex. Migration between Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales over the milenia makes the Irish issue more civil war than Empire.

Many factors contributed to the end of the British Empire. The same liberal movements which saw the British Empire end slavery and the slave trade from 1807 and also missionary expeditions into Africa built to an extent that the upper middle classes, which provided most of the officer corps and Imperial Civil Service lost the taste for empire. After fighting two world wars to prevent tyrannical Germanic conquests of Europe, Britain was also broke, emphasised by the extortion of the US towards war-supplies during World War II.

The British Empire didn't end in military ignomy like the Western Roman Empire, or swept away by a new religious empire like the Byzantine Empire. The British Empire simply retired undefeated.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

While I agree that America profited during the War early on, YOU did not save Europe the second time. You got your ass handed to you at Dunkirk and but for the stupidity of the Germans, should have been annihilated then and there. Hitler also made terrible blunders during the battle of britain.

That the enemy blunders in war doesn't detract from the success of the victor. It shows that the enemy erred yet we didn't.

I agree we underestimated the Nazis during the 'phoney war'.

But to suggest that Britain was 'saved' detracts from the truth. Britain had already 'saved' itself, and the free world, before America joined the war. The turning point was the Battle of Britain.

Let's put a little supposition together. Suppose the pilots of the RAF hadn't fought like lions and won. Imagine if the Nazis had knocked out the RAF, and crossed the channel. With the Royal Navy at the time the largest in the world, and with a good proportion of it in home dock, the Nazis would have captured this.

America would then be facing capable enemies on two sides, the Japanese on the Pacific coast, the Nazis on the Atlantic. Not a pretty picture. America would have been forced into a peace with Nazi Germany, to enable it to fight the Japanese.

In the meantime, the world's Jews, Gypsies, Socialists and homosexuals would have been exterminated, and the Nazi's would have been able to concentrate on defeating Russia.

But that didn't happen. The RAF prevented this.

Without the US in the war, something that FDR wanted much earlier but silly ass isolationists in this country objected to, you could not have done more than MAYBE kept the Island free of Germans.

Another American myth concerning WWII.

After the success in the Battle of Britain in October 1940 and before the Americans finally joined the war in December 1941 Britain might not have launched an invasion of mainland Europe, but we did take the war to the Nazis and the Axis powers across the globe. On land, in North and Central Africa, Norway and the Middle East, in the air over Europe and on the seas everywhere. To suggest that Britain was finished after the minor setback of the inevitable collapse of France and Dunkirk shows a deep underestimation of Britain as a fighting nation.

Our industrial might and population base used to fight a war was the prime reason Germany lost.

That is overselling your part in the German war. The setback that was the Battle of Britain forced Hitler to turn east too late in the year to reach Moscow before winter set in. The Soviets then mauled the German Army. Whilst American reinforcements expedited the reconquest of Europe, the battles that turned the tide against the Nazis were not American but British and Russian.

While I admire the brits, especially their almost devout alliance with the US, you oversell your position.

Pot, meet kettle.

As for our devoutness, we have in the last half century, had shockingly weak leaders. Including Thatcher. That will change.

As to "giving away the empire voluntarily" I think the Indian's might object to your overly altruistic view of how you gave up your empire, and I KNOW the Irish would.

I am sure that if we had been not been financially diasabled by two world wars, we would have been able to install reforms in India as a response to the uprisings and have crushed any violent rebellion. We succeeded in this in 1857. And as for Ireland, the internal issues of the British Isles is complex. Migration between Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales over the milenia makes the Irish issue more civil war than Empire.

Many factors contributed to the end of the British Empire. The same liberal movements which saw the British Empire end slavery and the slave trade from 1807 and also missionary expeditions into Africa built to an extent that the upper middle classes, which provided most of the officer corps and Imperial Civil Service lost the taste for empire. After fighting two world wars to prevent tyrannical Germanic conquests of Europe, Britain was also broke, emphasised by the extortion of the US towards war-supplies during World War II.

The British Empire didn't end in military ignomy like the Western Roman Empire, or swept away by a new religious empire like the Byzantine Empire. The British Empire simply retired undefeated.

So all those American pilots, that flew for the RAF, were just window dressing!!

 

[Socrtease]

While I agree that America profited during the War early on, YOU did not save Europe the second time. You got your ass handed to you at Dunkirk and but for the stupidity of the Germans, should have been annihilated then and there. Hitler also made terrible blunders during the battle of britain.

That the enemy blunders in war doesn't detract from the success of the victor. It shows that the enemy erred yet we didn't.

I agree we underestimated the Nazis during the 'phoney war'.

But to suggest that Britain was 'saved' detracts from the truth. Britain had already 'saved' itself, and the free world, before America joined the war. The turning point was the Battle of Britain.

Let's put a little supposition together. Suppose the pilots of the RAF hadn't fought like lions and won. Imagine if the Nazis had knocked out the RAF, and crossed the channel. With the Royal Navy at the time the largest in the world, and with a good proportion of it in home dock, the Nazis would have captured this.

America would then be facing capable enemies on two sides, the Japanese on the Pacific coast, the Nazis on the Atlantic. Not a pretty picture. America would have been forced into a peace with Nazi Germany, to enable it to fight the Japanese.

In the meantime, the world's Jews, Gypsies, Socialists and homosexuals would have been exterminated, and the Nazi's would have been able to concentrate on defeating Russia.

But that didn't happen. The RAF prevented this.

Without the US in the war, something that FDR wanted much earlier but silly ass isolationists in this country objected to, you could not have done more than MAYBE kept the Island free of Germans.

Another American myth concerning WWII.

After the success in the Battle of Britain in October 1940 and before the Americans finally joined the war in December 1941 Britain might not have launched an invasion of mainland Europe, but we did take the war to the Nazis and the Axis powers across the globe. On land, in North and Central Africa, Norway and the Middle East, in the air over Europe and on the seas everywhere. To suggest that Britain was finished after the minor setback of the inevitable collapse of France and Dunkirk shows a deep underestimation of Britain as a fighting nation.

Our industrial might and population base used to fight a war was the prime reason Germany lost.

That is overselling your part in the German war. The setback that was the Battle of Britain forced Hitler to turn east too late in the year to reach Moscow before winter set in. The Soviets then mauled the German Army. Whilst American reinforcements expedited the reconquest of Europe, the battles that turned the tide against the Nazis were not American but British and Russian.

While I admire the brits, especially their almost devout alliance with the US, you oversell your position.

Pot, meet kettle.

As for our devoutness, we have in the last half century, had shockingly weak leaders. Including Thatcher. That will change.

As to "giving away the empire voluntarily" I think the Indian's might object to your overly altruistic view of how you gave up your empire, and I KNOW the Irish would.

I am sure that if we had been not been financially diasabled by two world wars, we would have been able to install reforms in India as a response to the uprisings and have crushed any violent rebellion. We succeeded in this in 1857. And as for Ireland, the internal issues of the British Isles is complex. Migration between Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales over the milenia makes the Irish issue more civil war than Empire.

Many factors contributed to the end of the British Empire. The same liberal movements which saw the British Empire end slavery and the slave trade from 1807 and also missionary expeditions into Africa built to an extent that the upper middle classes, which provided most of the officer corps and Imperial Civil Service lost the taste for empire. After fighting two world wars to prevent tyrannical Germanic conquests of Europe, Britain was also broke, emphasised by the extortion of the US towards war-supplies during World War II.

The British Empire didn't end in military ignomy like the Western Roman Empire, or swept away by a new religious empire like the Byzantine Empire. The British Empire simply retired undefeated.

Yes yes, history teaches us that the British were working tirelessly for reforms in India between WW's I and II. Also, I find it interesting that you "would have been able to install reforms in India as a response to the uprisings and have crushed any violent rebellion." Like the crushing of the peaceful protests in Armritsar, when british forces opened fire on 10,000 unarmed men women and children in Jallianwallah Bagh , and after being relieved of duty Dyer returned to England as the "Savior of Punjab". Yes yes, all overt signs of Declining Empire gracefully bowing out. That was the worst instance but from that point on, British oppression of Hindus, Sikhss and Muslim in order to hold on to the crown jewel of the British Empire. Then Mountbatten bungled the partitian causing even more grief and death. All very altruistic.

 

[MOe]

After fighting two world wars to prevent tyrannical Germanic conquests of Europe.... [/B]

while i certainly agree that ww2 was fought against a tyrannical and genocidal german regime, i fail to see how germany started or was particularly tyrannical in its conduct of the first world war. furthermore, i must protest everyone's notion that germany was defeated during ww2 by the doing/bravery/commitment of one nation or other. to say that a single country/event/fact, even speaking generally, could be singled out as the one that brought about the german defeat is both close-minded and foolish.

going back to the primary subject of this thread, i have a question for the southern man: why exactly do you think we cannot compare germany to the US? both are certainly industrialized, democratic nations, both are members of the UN security council, both are members of the g8, both are among the top 5 economies world wide (based on gdp rankings by the IMF and world bank), both have a high per capita gdp, and so on.

 

[Socrtease]

while i certainly agree that ww2 was fought against a tyrannical and genocidal german regime, i fail to see how germany started or was particularly tyrannical in its conduct of the first world war. furthermore, i must protest everyone's notion that germany was defeated during ww2 by the doing/bravery/commitment of one nation or other. to say that a single country/event/fact, even speaking generally, could be singled out as the one that brought about the german defeat is both close-minded and foolish.

going back to the primary subject of this thread, i have a question for the southern man: why exactly do you think we cannot compare germany to the US? both are certainly industrialized, democratic nations, both are members of the UN security council, both are members of the g8, both are among the top 5 economies world wide (based on gdp rankings by the IMF and world bank), both have a high per capita gdp, and so on.

We can't compare Germany to the US because in Germany they have a government run healthcare system that works and that goes against Southernman's belief that Centralized Healthcare does not work.

 

[AnyOldIron]

So all those American pilots, that flew for the RAF, were just window dressing!!

The 10 American pilots who served the 'mother country' deserve their glorious place in history.

As do the 145 Polish, 88 Czech, 28 Belgians and 11 French pilots.

 

[AnyOldIron]

Yes yes, history teaches us that the British were working tirelessly for reforms in India between WW's I and II. Also, I find it interesting that you "would have been able to install reforms in India as a response to the uprisings and have crushed any violent rebellion." Like the crushing of the peaceful protests in Armritsar, when british forces opened fire on 10,000 unarmed men women and children in Jallianwallah Bagh , and after being relieved of duty Dyer returned to England as the "Savior of Punjab". Yes yes, all overt signs of Declining Empire gracefully bowing out. That was the worst instance but from that point on, British oppression of Hindus, Sikhss and Muslim in order to hold on to the crown jewel of the British Empire. Then Mountbatten bungled the partitian causing even more grief and death. All very altruistic

Building an Empire is a violent business.

But Britain did crush the Sepoy rebellion in the mid C19th and impose reforms that brought the educated Indian middle classes into the administration of the country an soothed many of the underlying issues.

However in 1945 Britain was broke. Largely due to American profiteering during the war. And after a hard 6 years of fighting so closely fought after the Great War left the British with little appetite for violence.

I agree we did simply dump the Empire.

We had held together the different warring religions in India for the previous couple of hundred years and when we were forced to relinquish our grip these warring factions went at each other. Similar to our error over Palestine.

 

[AnyOldIron]

while i certainly agree that ww2 was fought against a tyrannical and genocidal german regime, i fail to see how germany started or was particularly tyrannical in its conduct of the first world war. furthermore, i must protest everyone's notion that germany was defeated during ww2 by the doing/bravery/commitment of one nation or other. to say that a single country/event/fact, even speaking generally, could be singled out as the one that brought about the german defeat is both close-minded and foolish.

Never argued a single country did. Britain and its Empire, Russia and America won the war. My point was that we weren't 'saved' by America, that we had handsomely 'saved' ourselves and turned the course of the war before America joined. This is in reply to the constant US impression that it 'saved our ass in WWII'.

The Prussian militarists in Germany during WWI had been sabre rattling since the turn of the century. They found their excuse when Franz Ferdinand was executed. If Britain and its Empire, France, Russia and America hadn't fought, Prussian militarists would have conquered Europe.

All very similar to the Napoleonic war a century before.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

The 10 American pilots who served the 'mother country' deserve their glorious place in history.

As do the 145 Polish, 88 Czech, 28 Belgians and 11 French pilots.

Looks like the British needed a lot of help, that you didn't seem to mention.

 

[DamnYankee]

We can't compare Germany to the US because in Germany they have a government run healthcare system that works and that goes against Southernman's belief that Centralized Healthcare does not work.

It doesn't work as well as ours, you ass-licking dipshit.