Welcome to Jame's Madison's worst nightmare!
- Thread starter Publius
- Start date
How many times do we have to dumb the conversation down low enough for right wingers' pin sized brains to understand that 'Democracy' is a broad, descriptive term (it also has a narrow meaning, as well) where Democracy describes, and Republic denotes the structure. As such, they are not mutually exclusive terms?
Seem to me, that, in my entire 73 years on this earth, I never recalled Republicans making this argument, that is, not until they hadn't won the popular vote but twice in 30 something years, and since they have been enacting voter suppression laws in a number of red states.
Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation | Britannica
Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation: Is democracy the most appropriate name for a large-scale representative system such as that of the early United States? At the end of the 18th century, the history of the terms whose literal meaning is “rule by the people”—democracy and...www.britannica.com
Even among his contemporaries, Madison’s refusal to apply the term democracy to representative governments, even those based on broad electorates, was aberrant.
The term 'democracy' has both broad and parochial definition. Given that you are making a distinction between Republic (which also has a broad and parochial definition) and Democracy, you are therefore using the term in the parochial (narrow) sense.
The United States is a 'democracy' in the general sense of the word, not the parochial sense, to which you are referring. It is also a Republic in the parochial sense of the word. So, Democracy (broad sense), Republic (narrow sense).
We vote in run offs, primaries, and caucuses.
We vote for representatives.
We vote for senators.
We vote for governors
We vote for mayors, government officials from municipal to state levels in every state and municipality in the United States.
We vote for ballot initiatives in many states and municipalities.
In ALL of the above elections, hundreds, if not thousands of them, they are 'majority wins', i.e., 'direct democracy'.
In all of those elections, only one, a combined ticket for the President, and the Vice president, do we vote for electors to pick the president via the electoral college count.
I'd say that qualifies America to be called a democracy. That, in no way, negates any valid criticism of the democracy, but a democracy, nevertheless.
A democracy is often a term referring to....
1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.
Definition of republic
1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.www.theatlantic.com
‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—ArgumentEnabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.
Not to mention:
[It is a] fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22
Democracy in the United States.
The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.
‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.
The Constitution was meant to foster a complex form of majority rule, not enable minority rule.
[It is a] fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22
The descriptive term would be 'democracy'. America is both a Constitutional Republic, in form, and a Representative democracy by description.
Therefore, to all the right wing fuckwits in the land, the terms are not mutually exclusive.
Yes, guys like Mark Levin are dumb as shit.
Ignorant nonsense.
Take a civics class, Comrade.
{
A democracy is often a term referring to....
1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
}
ROFL
No comrade, that has utterly nothing to do with democracy and a feature of CONSTITUTIONS which are the central plank of Republics,
{3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion}
Cute perversion - you're as dishonest as you are ignorant.
You're dismissed.
Neil N. Blowme
Verified User
What a load of pure horse shit.
Matt Dillon
Semolina comes from wheat
So much babble with so many lies, pfft.
Matt Dillon
Semolina comes from wheat
Judges don't get to override presidents, idiot.
This judge is going to get his ass handed to him.
Oh, and also his wife is the head of one the NGOs USAID was funding. (past tense)
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Too funny! Publius played hooky a few times too many.
1. The United States is not a democracy; it's a representative republic
2. Marxists wield the term "democracy" as a euphemism for tyranny, which Publius notes is being destroyed by Trump
3. Publius is obviously panicking over his USAID gravy train being dismantled
It will be fun mocking you.
Hilarious! Publius, as with all undereducated leftists, can't get cause<-->effect straight. He (they) mistakenly believe(s) that Americans are bending the knee to Donald Trump who magickally bestowed great power upon himself, and cannot see that Donald Trump is bending the knee to Americans, who are rewarding Trump by bestowing upon him great power.
@Publius , you and your undereducated Marxist peers are blind ... and generally stupid.
For the stupid Marxists among us who can't possibly understand, Republics v. democracy/tyranny/oligarchy have an opposing relationship.
That's not really an inverse relationship; it's more of a complimentary relationship, i.e. tyranny + liberty = 1.0, the more liberty you have, the less tyranny you have; the more tyranny you have, the less liberty you have.
It's exactly linear.
Surprise, surprise! Publius doesn't know what fascism is.
Wow! Publius just said absolutely nothing. Who saw that coming?
... only in the case in which Trump isn't adhering to his campaign promises. Look! Trump is doing everything he promised. Well, I guess that closes out that issue.
Too funny! Publius finally admits to having been totally dishonest, and that he knew all along that We the People graced Trump with immense power because he proved himself a worthy servant, not that We the People are somehow bending the knee to Trump.
Someone tell Publius that We the People already elected Trump President and We're not going to undo it.
Too funny! Publius apparently can't grasp the idea that all MAGA in Congress are facilitating what We the People want accomplished. I wish Publius would just come right out and announce "I want tyranny" before crying like a fucking baby.
Publius believes that deweaponizing the government, eliminating lawfare from the justice system, dismantling tyranny, regaining control of government spending of Our money, returning equality of all under the law, ensuring the maintenance of only the highest standards, defending the country against unfair trade practices, gutting wasteful spending, axing UNIPARTY slush funds, abolishing LGBTQIAMVPPIPSTURZVS-supremacy, securing the border, controlling immigration, returning to the rule of law, fixing the economy and putting the country first is somehow "deeply concerning" to any freedom-loving human.
Publius isn't the brightest bulb in the pack.
Having given Trump this much power will make America great again. There's no danger in that.
Publius has no evidence to support this. Publius babbles like this.
Publius likes to broadcast his poor judgement.
@Publius, you need to show corruption.
Amazing ... Publius says this as though this hasn't always been the case, that is only this way at the end of making America great. You can't make this shit up.
... by dishonest Marxists such as yourself, despite them living in a representative republic that is being made great.
Too funny! Publius never learned that "Republicans" are part of the UNIPARTY. He probably thinks RINOs are MAGA.
Publius
Well-known member
Incompetent reply.
Publius
Well-known member
Your rebuttal is incompetent, nothing you expressed refutes the Encyclopedia Britannica, The government's own website, and the other facts listed.
Sammy Jankis
Was it me?
all you had to do was not go all in on transing kids........
your party got driven off a cliff.
Democracy is the direct voting by the people on issues and laws.
By definition it circumvents civil rights as 51% of the population may vote to slaughter the other 49%
Whether Britannica (Wikipedia is more reliable) or just made up by you, it is laughably ignorant to claim
Democracy is,
1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
Of course Britannica does NOT make such a claim,
{democracy, literally, rule by the people. The term is derived from the Greek dēmokratia, which was coined from dēmos (“people”) and kratos (“rule”) in the middle of the 5th century bce to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens.}
Democracy | Definition, History, Meaning, Types, Examples, & Facts | Britannica
Democracy is a system of government in which power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or through freely elected representatives. The term is derived from the Greek ‘demokratia,’ which was coined in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems of some Greek city-states...
www.britannica.com
You simply made shit up and used and appeal to authority fallacy by claiming it was Britannica, hoping no one would fact check you.
Yes, they do and it happens quite often, they ruled against several of Biden’s EO.
The idea that lower courts can overrule the executive branch violates the U.S. Constitution. It perverts the checks and balances inherent in our system. Only the Supreme Court is empowered to challenge the coequal branches of government.
The Administration should simply reject the usurpation of executive authority by unelected lower courts and publically state that it will not abide unconstitutional acts by a dictatorship of the judiciary. Force this to the Supreme Court.
Are federal district judges granted authority by the Constitution to rule over the Executive? Is the President inferior and presumed subservient to all federal judges?
Matt Dillon
Semolina comes from wheat
No. This crap will get steamrolled.
Matt Dillon
Semolina comes from wheat
Based on Constitutionality, maybe. That's not what these jokers are doing.
They are using the courts, just like MAGA did to stop Biden. They are doing nothing different.
Publius
Well-known member
That is the parochial definition by Madison. NO ONE ELSE uses that definition except recently by the likes of Mark Levin, etc.
Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation | Britannica
Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation: Is democracy the most appropriate name for a large-scale representative system such as that of the early United States? At the end of the 18th century, the history of the terms whose literal meaning is “rule by the people”—democracy and...
www.britannica.com
To History, in every lecture by academia and the halls of governance across America, from time immemorial, the descriptive term, 'Democracy,' has been used to apply to all the liberal democracies of the Western developed nations, AKA 'liberal democracies,' and each and every one of them is some variant of the 'representative democracy.
That is the modern use of the term, NOT "James Madison's narrow use of it.
To the right's contention that', 'you don't see the term democracy in any of the founding documents',
That's specious logic, you don't see the term 'beautiful country' in any of the founding documents, and are you going to argue
that, therefore, America is not a beautiful country?
That logic suffers. That you guys on the right use that logic reveals your incapacity for intellectual depth which explains why you
are capable of believing a falsehood like 'America is not a democracy'.
There are, essentially, two types of republics.
1. The kind that appoint their leaders.
2. The kind that elect their leaders, directly or indirectly.
The #1 kind tend to be authoritarian.
The #2 kind are democracies.
From there, there are many sub types, as we can see here:
https://www.yourdictionary.com/articles/republic-types-countries
Republics come in different forms of government, but a common one is a democracy.
"Democracy' is a descriptive term, often used in high minded and poetic terms. A republic that elects it's leaders by vote, direct, or indirect, is a democracy AND a republic, thus 'representative democracy' or 'representative republic' or 'constitutional republic' where 'republic is the form, and 'democracy' is the descriptor.
As such, they are not mutually exclusive terms.
Actually, we are a hybrid consisting of
1. Representatives for legislation, but not all legislation.
2. Direct voting for ballot initiatives.
3. Direct voting for governors
4. Direct voting for other various state and municipal offices
5. Voting for electors who choose the president and vice president.
so, we are a constitutional, federal, republic that is a representative democracy with numerous direct elections.
Pick your name, one is as good as the other. Just be mindful of the truth, that America is a hybrid of both direct and indirect elections.
WE are a Representative democracy. The terms 'constitutional republic' and 'representative democracy' are not mutually exclusive terms.
Why is it called that? Because legislation is voted on by representatives.
Direct voting is held on:
congresspersons
Senators.
Governors
Mayors
Municipal and state office holders of various types.
State Ballot initiatives (yes, 'direct democracy' in many states).
The ONLY elections that are not direct of for legislation and the president.
Two, out of hundreds of elections in America.
Where there is a substantial amount of voting by citizens, you have a democracy. Call it anything you want, but descriptively speaking, it's a democracy. Now, if you want to get specific, which doesn't squash democracy concept at all, you can call it a 'constitutional republic' or a 'federal democratic constitutional republic' or anything you want, but it's still a democracy, a democracy of a certain type. So those who say this should quit saying it . That's a lie, and a BIG lie, at that.
MAGA types don't like the term because they haven't won the popular vote but once in 33 years? No wonder they don't like democracy, democracy doesn't like them. LOL!
Britannica is a centuries old publication comprised of over 100 scholars.
By definition it circumvents civil rights as 51% of the population may vote to slaughter the other 49%
Whether Britannica (Wikipedia is more reliable) or just made up by you, it is laughably ignorant to claim
Democracy is,
1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
Of course Britannica does NOT make such a claim,
{democracy, literally, rule by the people. The term is derived from the Greek dēmokratia, which was coined from dēmos (“people”) and kratos (“rule”) in the middle of the 5th century bce to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens.}
Democracy | Definition, History, Meaning, Types, Examples, & Facts | Britannica
Democracy is a system of government in which power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or through freely elected representatives. The term is derived from the Greek ‘demokratia,’ which was coined in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems of some Greek city-states...
You simply made shit up and used and appeal to authority fallacy by claiming it was Britannica, hoping no one would fact check you.
Excuse me, I will take their word for it over some anonymous dude on the internet.
When I say 'America is a democracy' Democracy is an American core value, we are using the term in it's broadest meaning.
And it most certainly does have a broader meaning and proving it will be easy. It's in speeches,. on government websites, in documents, going back years.
A democracy,. as western styled democracy, is a high minded term, a broad term, it simply is not confined to the narrow meaning of 'voting direct" that's not it's been used for a long time, It is not a legal term, a descriptive term, it is more high minded, aspirational, even poetic. "Republic" is used in documents because it is more nominal in it's connotation. But using it doesn't mean 'not a democracy'. No way, jose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy
In 1971, Robert Dahl summarized the fundamental rights and freedoms shared by all liberal democracies as eight rights:[33]
- Freedom to form and join organizations.
- Freedom of expression.
- Right to vote.
- Right to run for public office.
- Right of political leaders to compete for support and votes.
- Freedom of alternative sources of information
- Free and fair elections.
- Right to control government policy through votes and other expressions of preference.
At its core, democracy is a system of government where the power to govern is vested in the hands of the people. It is characterized by principles of political equality, popular sovereignty, and the rule of law. Here are some key aspects that define a democracy:
- Popular Sovereignty: In a democracy, the authority of the government is derived from the consent of the governed. This means that the ultimate power rests with the people.
- Political Equality: All citizens have equal access to power and the decision-making process. This often manifests through equal voting rights in free and fair elections.
- Majority Rule and Minority Rights: While the decisions are generally based on the majority's preference, a true democracy also safeguards the rights and freedoms of minorities and dissenting individuals or groups.
- Rule of Law: Democracies operate under a framework of laws that apply equally to all individuals, protecting their rights and outlining their responsibilities.
- Participation: Citizens in a democracy have the right to participate in the political process, both directly and indirectly (through elected representatives).
- Transparency and Accountability: Democratic governments are transparent in their workings and are accountable to the people.
- Pluralism: Democracies encourage a variety of viewpoints and the peaceful coexistence of different interests, beliefs, and lifestyles.
- Civil Liberties: These include freedoms of speech, assembly, religion, and the press, which are essential for political debate and the functioning of a democratic society.
Yes, but a Republic of a certain type. Republic is even a BROADER term.
Don't believe me? Look for yourself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_republics
So, we are a hybrid, a federal constitutional democratic republic, AKA 'representative democracy', or constitutional Republic.
These are NOT mutually exclusive terms, they mean, essentially, the same thing and are often used interchangeably.
A democratic country, therefore, is one where these principles are upheld. It is a country where the government is elected by the people, where laws are made and enforced in a fair and open manner, and where the rights and freedoms of individuals are respected and protected.
A republic is a nation of appointed or elected leaders, so a democracy is a certain type of Republic.
Now, we are NOT talking about Madison's parochial use of the term. 'Athens democracy", The term has broadened considerably since Athens, and, I repeat, even Madison's contemporizes disagreed with his use of the term, they thought his refusal to apply it to representative Democracy was aberrant, noting that Madison was only a man in his 30s, at the time.
Your use of the term is wrong.
It is incorrect.
A word is defined by it's use, and, I repeat, To History, in every lecture by academia and the halls of governance across America, from time immemorial, the descriptive term, 'Democracy,' has been used to apply to all the liberal democracies of the Western developed nations, AKA 'liberal democracies,' and each and every one of them is some variant of the 'representative democracy.
That is the modern use of the term, NOT "James Madison's narrow use of it.
Now get this, in fact, in my 73 years, I NEVER ever heard Republicans using the term NOT to describe America as a democracy, the ONLY time I ever heard them whining about it was when:
1. After SCOTUS gutted The Vote rights act and Repubs went hog wild gerrymandering districts across America
2. Realized they had won the popular vote but a couple of times in over 30 years.
Bingo, Republicans need to poo poo the centuries old idea that America is a democracy in order to assuage their guilt.
Viola, there is the hard, bitter truth, the bitter pill Republicans must swallow.
Open wide, now swallow.