The stick vs. the carrot (online discussions here)

[Ross Dolan]

Actually, you make a good point here. In general, when I'm faced with responses to my posts that are insult laden, I have decided it's best to either not respond at all or to make my response short, sometimes as short as a picture meme.

Okay...and that is a reasonable way to deal with it. Another way is to return the insults. Neither is particularly good at changing behaior.

Again, I don't see why it can't be both, keeping in mind my caveat on people who do insult above.

Let me leave this for now. Let me respond to the rest of your comments.

That would be the hardest I think- to choose people who insult people they disagree with as a matter of course. As I've already said, I doubt I'd ever be able to prove that being nice tends to elicit the same, and I think it'd be hardest to prove with precisely the types of people you have in mind.

Then don't chose them. Chose me. I am insulting as hell to people, but not everyone. That holds true for almost every person who engages in insulting conversation. Some insult me to a huge degree...and then write glowing, friendly responses to others with whom they agree.

So choose me. Change my mind to agree with your contention using the respectful tone you have been using...and which, for the most part, I have been using in return...is better at getting me to change my mind than telling me to go fuck myself.

Agreed. But isn't it so much nicer to have cordial conversations with people we disagree with than the insult laden kind? I also think that it's much more probable to change the mind of someone who you can have a cordial discussion with than someone with whom that's not possible. Now, "much more" may go from .01% to .1%, but hey, that's still a factor of 10 .

Okay, but I disagree.

 

[Scott]

As to the ideological differences, I suspect that most if it is superficial- people become so fixated on vague ideas that they don't realize that beneath their ideological differences are people who all (or at least mostly) have loved ones they care for. I think spending some time trying to focus on what we -agree- on rather than what we disagree on can be useful sometimes.

Here I must disagree.

The difference between people who voted for Trump and people like myself
who cannot describe in words how much we hate him
is NOT SUPERFICIAL.

It's substantial enough that one could reasonably study if the factions have evolved
into entirely separate subspecies.

I certainly don't accept anyone who ever cast a vote for that troglodyte to be human.

I consider each and every one, without a single exception, to be a malignant cancer on our American population
which needs to be excised. I am certain that the genocide of one side or the other is the only thing that
can make America's population compatible again.

I'd HONESTLY rather see our population reduced to half, regardless of which side wins,
that to continue living in the shit show that is America today.
The dumpster fire that we're in now, with Trump as an insane fascist dictator, is unlivable.

Alright, you can ofcourse hold this rather extreme view, but tell me, do you really think you can always tell someone who voted from Trump from someone who didn't? Heck, there are even people who voted for Trump who now regret it. Would they still be on your blacklist? And we're not even getting into -why- those who voted for Trump voted for him. As I've said in the past, if I were American, I would have voted for neither Kamala or Trump, but the fact that they were the only 2 choices that actually had a chance of winning said a lot of the current political climate in the U.S. I think.

 

[Scott]

Actually, you make a good point here. In general, when I'm faced with responses to my posts that are insult laden, I have decided it's best to either not respond at all or to make my response short, sometimes as short as a picture meme.

Okay...and that is a reasonable way to deal with it. Another way is to return the insults. Neither is particularly good at changing behaior.

I'm reminded of a well known line "don't feed the troll". I don't like the term, but I think there is something to be said for it- that is, when someone's behaviour is out of line, best to sideline them in the conversation. Would you agree to that?

That would be the hardest I think- to choose people who insult people they disagree with as a matter of course. As I've already said, I doubt I'd ever be able to prove that being nice tends to elicit the same, and I think it'd be hardest to prove with precisely the types of people you have in mind.

Then don't chose them. Chose me. I am insulting as hell to people, but not everyone. That holds true for almost every person who engages in insulting conversation. Some insult me to a huge degree...and then write glowing, friendly responses to others with whom they agree.

So choose me. Change my mind to agree with your contention using the respectful tone you have been using...and which, for the most part, I have been using in return...is better at getting me to change my mind than telling me to go fuck myself.

You know, the thing is, barring some actual emergency, I don't think it's that important to change people's minds on things. People frequently took a long time to get to where they are and changes will generally take a long time as well, if they happen at all. What I -do- want is civilized discussion and I think you're basically making my point for me- be nice to others and they tend to be nice to you, even if they disagree with you on a given subject.

Okay, but I disagree.

Agreed. But isn't it so much nicer to have cordial conversations with people we disagree with than the insult laden kind? I also think that it's much more probable to change the mind of someone who you can have a cordial discussion with than someone with whom that's not possible. Now, "much more" may go from .01% to .1%, but hey, that's still a factor of 10.

Fair enough.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

View attachment 48448

Alright, you can ofcourse hold this rather extreme view, but tell me, do you really think you can always tell someone who voted from Trump from someone who didn't? Heck, there are even people who voted for Trump who now regret it. Would they still be on your blacklist? And we're not even getting into -why- those who voted for Trump voted for him. As I've said in the past, if I were American, I would have voted for neither Kamala or Trump, but the fact that they were the only 2 choices that actually had a chance of winning said a lot of the current political climate in the U.S. I think.

Anybody who ever a cast a vote for Trump is irredeemable, regardless of the reason given.
Suicide is the only adequate and acceptable act of contrition for them--literally.

Also, our past election was not about choosing the best possible candidate.
We didn't have that luxury.

It was about stopping Trump and fascism.

Kamala Harris was the only person who had a chance of beating Trump,
so NOT voting for her was the very same thing as voting for Trump.

Being an eligible voter and not voting for Harris
was every bit the moral equivalent of terrorism or child molestation.
Redemption does not exist for such malignant creatures.
I'll stop hating them when I'm dead and no longer exist...and not a moment before.

 

[Tobytone]

Being a political hybrid, where I agree with the left/democrats on some things and the right/republicans on others, I find it almost comical how I find that some people who I strongly disagree with on some issues I also strongly -agree- with on others and thus, how in some conversations we're good friends and in others, we're dire enemies . I think some people have caught on to the fact that I'm actually the same person though and I think that's helped avoid some insult fests.

But in regards to some who have decided that only insults will do in response, I think the following biblical line from Proverbs 26:4 is good:
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him."

Put another way, fighting fire with fire just tends to add to the blaze.

So what I've now settled on in response to insults is to just post a humorous meme or snip it out of anything I quote. I have also at times stopped responding to a post as soon as personal insults start getting used and point it out as well. In the end, whether one does what I do above or respond with insults in kind, I find that insults tend to shut down any constructive discussion regardless.

I’m with you, and here’s another biblical gem I often mull over, paraphrased: “Don’t toss pearls to swine.” Spot on, just like your verse and another fave of mine, Romans 1:22: “Professing to be wise, they became fools.” All true, let’s be real, this isn’t some quaint town square or cozy pub. It’s an online forum packed with left-wing nutjobs who traded thinking for the easy route, marching orders and tribal politics. No brainpower needed when the hive mind does the heavy lifting! They just memorize the talking points, and when reality or evidence dares to challenge their narrative, they unleash the personal attacks, sling insults, and ignore the message like it’s a spam email. Debate? They’d rather contradict with flimsy anecdotes and outright lies. If following the bibles advice, I'd log out and spend my time doing something productive, but here I am, mostly here for the laughs.

That said, I really stick around for the fresh takes from like-minded people, news I might’ve missed, and to track the Democrats’ daily descent into madness. I commend you for your efforts and strategy, like I said, I'm with you. However, this place might not be the best place for persuading people, in my humble opinion.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'm reminded of a well known line "don't feed the troll". I don't like the term, but I think there is something to be said for it- that is, when someone's behaviour is out of line, best to sideline them in the conversation. Would you agree to that?

In some cases. When it comes to dealing with Trumpers, though, It amount to committing political suicide. The Trumpers must be challenged...and 90% of the time must be challenged with hell, fire, and brimstone. Use politeness and respect if you want, but I (and obviously others here) will consider you a fool for doing so. Ignore them if you choose, but be prepared to pay the consequences. (For references of what the consequences may well be, Google pictures of of Berlin in early 1945.

You know, the thing is, barring some actual emergency, I don't think it's that important to change people's minds on things. People frequently took a long time to get to where they are and changes will generally take a long time as well, if they happen at all. What I -do- want is civilized discussion and I think you're basically making my point for me- be nice to others and they tend to be nice to you, even if they disagree with you on a given subject.

Okay, but this conversation of our started using the parameters mentioned on page one...with particular attention to what I was challenging in my post #6.

Fair enough.

 

[EdwinA]

Our ideological difference are EXTREME, Scott,
and we viscerally loathe one another's values as being grotesquely perverted.

It's just not an environment for civility.

America is as polarized as a nation can be,
and right now,
it doesn't look like we're going to survive it.

Should we even survive it?

Sicko loon snivels as if it has 'values n stuff'. lol what a hoot.

 

[Scott]

View attachment 48448

Alright, you can ofcourse hold this rather extreme view, but tell me, do you really think you can always tell someone who voted from Trump from someone who didn't? Heck, there are even people who voted for Trump who now regret it. Would they still be on your blacklist? And we're not even getting into -why- those who voted for Trump voted for him. As I've said in the past, if I were American, I would have voted for neither Kamala or Trump, but the fact that they were the only 2 choices that actually had a chance of winning said a lot of the current political climate in the U.S. I think.

Anybody who ever a cast a vote for Trump is irredeemable, regardless of the reason given.
Suicide is the only adequate and acceptable act of contrition for them--literally.

Would you mind explaining your reasoning here?

Also, our past election was not about choosing the best possible candidate.
We didn't have that luxury.

It was about stopping Trump and fascism.

Kamala Harris was the only person who had a chance of beating Trump,
so NOT voting for her was the very same thing as voting for Trump.

Being an eligible voter and not voting for Harris
was every bit the moral equivalent of terrorism or child molestation.
Redemption does not exist for such malignant creatures.
I'll stop hating them when I'm dead and no longer exist...and not a moment before.

This all seems rather extreme. If I were American, I wouldn't have voted for Harris because I felt she might have led the U.S. into a nuclear war with Russia. Trump, for all his faults, seems to clearly be steering away from such a fate.

 

[Scott]

I’m with you, and here’s another biblical gem I often mull over, paraphrased: “Don’t toss pearls to swine.” Spot on, just like your verse and another fave of mine, Romans 1:22: “Professing to be wise, they became fools.” All true, let’s be real, this isn’t some quaint town square or cozy pub. It’s an online forum packed with left-wing nutjobs who traded thinking for the easy route, marching orders and tribal politics. No brainpower needed when the hive mind does the heavy lifting! They just memorize the talking points, and when reality or evidence dares to challenge their narrative, they unleash the personal attacks, sling insults, and ignore the message like it’s a spam email. Debate? They’d rather contradict with flimsy anecdotes and outright lies. If following the bibles advice, I'd log out and spend my time doing something productive, but here I am, mostly here for the laughs.

That said, I really stick around for the fresh takes from like-minded people, news I might’ve missed, and to track the Democrats’ daily descent into madness. I commend you for your efforts and strategy, like I said, I'm with you. However, this place might not be the best place for persuading people, in my humble opinion.

Being a political hybrid, where I agree with the left/democrats on some things and the right/republicans on others, I find it almost comical how I find that some people who I strongly disagree with on some issues I also strongly -agree- with on others and thus, how in some conversations we're good friends and in others, we're dire enemies. I think some people have caught on to the fact that I'm actually the same person though and I think that's helped avoid some insult fests.

But in regards to some who have decided that only insults will do in response, I think the following biblical line from Proverbs 26:4 is good:
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him."

Put another way, fighting fire with fire just tends to add to the blaze.

So what I've now settled on in response to insults is to just post a humorous meme or snip it out of anything I quote. I have also at times stopped responding to a post as soon as personal insults start getting used and point it out as well. In the end, whether one does what I do above or respond with insults in kind, I find that insults tend to shut down any constructive discussion regardless.

I’m with you, and here’s another biblical gem I often mull over, paraphrased: “Don’t toss pearls to swine.” Spot on, just like your verse and another fave of mine, Romans 1:22: “Professing to be wise, they became fools.” All true, let’s be real, this isn’t some quaint town square or cozy pub. It’s an online forum packed with left-wing nutjobs who traded thinking for the easy route, marching orders and tribal politics. No brainpower needed when the hive mind does the heavy lifting! They just memorize the talking points, and when reality or evidence dares to challenge their narrative, they unleash the personal attacks, sling insults, and ignore the message like it’s a spam email. Debate? They’d rather contradict with flimsy anecdotes and outright lies. If following the bibles advice, I'd log out and spend my time doing something productive, but here I am, mostly here for the laughs.

That said, I really stick around for the fresh takes from like-minded people, news I might’ve missed, and to track the Democrats’ daily descent into madness. I commend you for your efforts and strategy, like I said, I'm with you. However, this place might not be the best place for persuading people, in my humble opinion.

I certainly agree that this isn't the best place for persuading people. I think that on the whole, that's easier to do with people you are already close to, and vice versa as well- friends have a better chance of persuading us that we may be mistaken as well. And here is the crux of my point- by trying to see how we are alike as a point to build upon, we make it more likely that others in this forum could at least see us as a -potential- friend and that, in turn, can lead not just to it being more likely that they might consider our viewpoints more seriously, but that the discussion will be civilized- and when there is -civilized- discussion, that, in my view, is when the most productive exchange of ideas occurs.

 

[Scott]

I'm reminded of a well known line "don't feed the troll". I don't like the term, but I think there is something to be said for it- that is, when someone's behaviour is out of line, best to sideline them in the conversation. Would you agree to that?

In some cases. When it comes to dealing with Trumpers, though, It amount to committing political suicide. The Trumpers must be challenged...and 90% of the time must be challenged with hell, fire, and brimstone. Use politeness and respect if you want, but I (and obviously others here) will consider you a fool for doing so. Ignore them if you choose, but be prepared to pay the consequences. (For references of what the consequences may well be, Google pictures of of Berlin in early 1945.

I think the mistake here is in thinking that all the people who like Trump are alike. I definitely don't feel that way. My strategy is to engage with the more reasonable Trumpers and sideline those who tend to fly off the handle. There's also the issue that I think that -some- Trump policies, such as his efforts to try to make a peace deal with Russia in Ukraine, are good.

You know, the thing is, barring some actual emergency, I don't think it's that important to change people's minds on things. People frequently took a long time to get to where they are and changes will generally take a long time as well, if they happen at all. What I -do- want is civilized discussion and I think you're basically making my point for me- be nice to others and they tend to be nice to you, even if they disagree with you on a given subject.

Okay, but this conversation of our started using the parameters mentioned on page one...with particular attention to what I was challenging in my post #6.

Alright, I reviewed post #6, I think your main idea there was that the stick was more effective than the stick in persuading people to change their mind. My counter to that was that while the stick can change behaviour, I don't think it does much to change people's minds. In regards to online discussions, insults can certainly -silence- dissenting views, but again, that doesn't mean you've changed people's minds, just that they're not interested in continuing to receive insults.

From what I've said above and your not disagreeing with it, it appears that we agree that being nice to others tends to them being nice in return, which I think we can agree leads to more productive discussions on the whole.

 

[Libhater]

I'm not arguing with never-right leftists at this forum; I'm simply explaining to them why I'm always RIGHT.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Would you mind explaining your reasoning here?



This all seems rather extreme. If I were American, I wouldn't have voted for Harris because I felt she might have led the U.S. into a nuclear war with Russia. Trump, for all his faults, seems to clearly be steering away from such a fate.

I'd literally prefer the nuclear war to the dumpster fire.
America today is intolerable.
And we'd win the nuclear war in five or six days.

This planet can't support eight billion people anyway.

 

[EdwinA]

I'm not arguing with never-right leftists at this forum; I'm simply explaining to them why I'm always RIGHT.

They're gibbering idiots, so it's not that hard. They're hoping they sound 'rational n stuff' l in this thread, but they inevitably prove they're whining mentally ill deviants and sociopaths as soon they post anything in the other forums. lol they're cute when they're trying to be clever, like watching 4 year olds stealing cookies and then denying they did it.

View: https://youtu.be/Wx9DITMmkdw

View: https://youtu.be/Y8Qn74akLf0

 

[Tobytone]

I certainly agree that this isn't the best place for persuading people. I think that on the whole, that's easier to do with people you are already close to, and vice versa as well- friends have a better chance of persuading us that we may be mistaken as well. And here is the crux of my point- by trying to see how we are alike as a point to build upon, we make it more likely that others in this forum could at least see us as a -potential- friend and that, in turn, can lead not just to it being more likely that they might consider our viewpoints more seriously, but that the discussion will be civilized- and when there is -civilized- discussion, that, in my view, is when the most productive exchange of ideas occurs.

Totally get it. I’m nodding along because I’ve spent plenty of time using more of your approach trying to wake people up in my own circle and any poor soul stuck listening to me. I respect your insult-free persuasion game and wish you luck with it.

Honestly this is more my outlet for letting loose. I’ve crunched the numbers and decided on a slap-them-awake approach to see if I can shake someone out of their stupors while having a bit of fun I can’t get out there in the real world. Admittedly, it’s a tad selfish but I’ve never claimed to be a saint, I'm still very much a work in progress.

Keep fighting the good fight. We might clash on other issues someday and if we do just know it’s never personal.