Bai Lan
Let It Rot
all these adrenochrome addicts want vampirism.
To non Catholic Christians let's talk John 6:34-69
- Thread starter Yakuda
- Start date
Yakuda
Verified User
Yes he did say he was the bread from heaven then said this bread is my FLESH
again the cannibal argument is just flailing
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
... then said "which I will give for the life of the world".
Jesus sacrificed himself that we might have life through him. When we receive Jesus into our lives, we are partaking the "bread from heaven".
Yakuda
Verified User
Correct then said unless you eat this bread....the bread he just called his flesh, you have no life within you. There is no getting around this you ignore it at your own peril
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Just after what I quoted, and just before what you are about to quote, the Jews were perplexed, wondering "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
At this point, the Jews (much like you) were not understanding the spiritual truth and significance of what Jesus was saying.
That bread is eaten in memory/recognition of Jesus sacrificing his body on the cross, taking all of our sins with him. That bread does not physically change into Jesus' flesh; holy communion is not cannibalism.
Additionally, your problem from earlier still remains. If you choose to view these verses as referencing the institution of holy communion, then those verses would also be teaching that the simple partaking of holy communion allows one to receive eternal life (which isn't true).
There's nothing for me to "ignore" or "get around". I'm addressing it head on. It is you who is attempting to make holy communion into cannibalism.
Yakuda
Verified User
They left Jesus I didnt. EVERYONE in that story KNOWS jesus is speaking literally.
No its transformed into the the resurrected body of Jesus. The cannibalism thing is just drivel
It is true but unlike you I know people can lose their salvation.
Cannibalism is the intellectually lazy approach. Youre suggesting Jesus cant give us his body to eat and his flesh to drink.
Bai Lan
Let It Rot
you're just fucking dumb.
Yakuda
Verified User
I may be dumb but I can read what Jesus said. You apparently are struggling
Bai Lan
Let It Rot
you can't actually.
‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Yakuda
Verified User
Well Jesus says something different. If you dont like it I really dont care
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Jesus was not speaking about holy communion (it hadn't been instituted yet).
No, it's not transformed into anything. It's still bread and wine.
This belief, imo, is much more concerning than the transubstantiation belief that we've been discussing so far. People do not ever "lose their salvation" after obtaining it. Either one is saved (by grace, through faith alone) or one is not. While the JOY OF salvation can most certainly be lost, and REWARDS can most certainly be lost, salvation itself (once received) can never be lost.
Ask yourself: If salvation is something that can be received, then lost, then received again, then lost again, etc etc, why would Jesus, to the workers of iniquity, utter the words "I never knew you; depart from me..."? It sounds to me like such people never had true salvation to begin with.
What good is a salvation that can easily be lost, that always leaves one wondering whether or not one truly has it? Salvation is a gift from God. Anyone who accepts that gift of salvation has been sanctified by the Father, saved by the Son, and sealed by the Holy Spirit (unto the day of redemption).
Given all of this, it is definitely not a good thing for Christians to "sin whenever they please because they're already saved anyway". What kind of a relationship with God is THAT? What joy is there for the Christian in THAT? What reward is there for the Christian in THAT? While works (in and of themselves) don't save anyone, works ARE still a VERY important part of being a Christian.
I'll assume that you meant to say "...body to eat and his blood to drink."
That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm simply suggesting that these passages should be understood in a spiritual sense rather than a physical sense. Jesus already gave us his body and his blood when he died for us on the cross. That doesn't mean that the bread and wine used in communion is literally changed into his flesh and blood. In fact, when Jesus finally DID institute the sacrament of communion, he said "do this in remembrance of me". That means that holy communion is done "looking back" on something that Jesus did, in this case his death on the cross.
It's a symbolic thing. There is no literal body and blood that is literally being eaten instead of bread and wine.
Yakuda
Verified User
It's not symbolic and of that Jesus is very clear. Verse 51
I am the living bread come down from heaven (symbolic)
Whoever eats this bread (symbolic) will live forever
And the bread that I will give is my flesh (literal) for the life of the world
Verse 53
Amen Amen I say to you unless you.eat the FLESH(my emphasis. He doesn't say bread or his word he says FLESH) and drink his blood you do not have life within you.
Verse 54
Whoever feeds upon my FLESH (not bread not his word)
And drinks my blood has eternal life.
Verse 55
For my FLESH (not bread not his word) is real food...
Verse 56
Whoever feeds upon my FLESH (not bread not his word) and drinks my blood dwells.in me and I dwell in him
How many times does Jesus have to say it for you? If he's not talking literally then his question in verse 61 is nonsensical. why would anyone be shocked if it were symbolic. You're the one that can't accept it. (Verse 60)
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
You have this backwards. The (false) disciples were shocked BECAUSE they viewed Jesus' words in the NATURAL rather than in the symbolic sense.
In the natural sense, Jesus' words would be understood as requiring cannibalism. However, Jesus already told them to worship in SPIRIT.
Yakuda
Verified User
I guess 4 times isn't enough for you. Yes worship in SPIRIT that Jesus tells us 4 TIMES to eat his flesh not bread and not his word.
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Do you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign on Earth? ("The Millennium")
I've repeated myself enough times on this subject matter, and honestly, it's not vital to the Christian faith. If you feel better believing that you are literally gobbling up Jesus' flesh and blood whenever you partake in holy communion (rather than the bread and wine that are actually physically present), then so be it.
I'm actually more concerned about your belief that salvation can somehow be lost after it is received. Yes, the JOY of salvation can be lost. Yes, the REWARDS associated with salvation can be lost. But no, salvation itself cannot be lost.
If you believe in the totality of the Word of God (made flesh in Jesus), have a changed attitude towards sin, have a true desire to obey God, and have otherwise wholly committed your life to Christ, then you are saved.
Yakuda
Verified User
And Jesus repeated himself and you pay no need. The words, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you do not have life within you , means absolutely nothing to you.
The words whoever feeds upon my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, is not "vital" to the Christian faith. You must be kidding right?
As to losing salvation Scripture is clear about that as well. But I'll.play along if my salvation is secure then.i can rape lie and murder right? Please don't use the you aren't a real Christian if you do those things argument. If I can't lose.my salvation then I can do as i please. You can't have it both ways and again Scripture is qhite clear on the matter.
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gfm7175
Mega MAGA
This has been addressed in prior responses.
You're misunderstanding. I said that the specific "transubstantiation vs consubstantiation vs something else" debate isn't vital. Christians are still saved regardless of what specific belief they hold on that matter.
Actually, the Bible teaches the exact opposite; that salvation is permanent and unconditional (it cannot be lost). There's a plethora of passages just in John alone that tell us that all that is required is "believing in [Jesus]". I already explained what that means in my prior response. You, through this erroneous belief of yours, are nullifying the work of the Holy Spirit, who has sealed all believers in God (unto the day of redemption) [Ephesians 4:30, John 14:16]
Romans 8:1 tells us that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Psalm 37:28 tells us that the LORD does not forsake his godly ones, they are preserved forever. John 5:24 and John 6:37-40 are also quite clear about this truth. Also, see 1st Corinthians 3:10-16.
God (through Jesus) already did all of the work. One needs only to accept the gift of salvation via believing in The Word and turning one's life over to God (being "born again").
No, you can't. If that's what your mindset is towards sin, then you have not been "born again". You have not received salvation and you have not been saved.
So I can't use the correct argument that rebuts your position? See above.
No, you can't. If you truly believe that, then you never received salvation in the first place. You never gave your life over to God.
???????
Indeed it is. You are mistaken about it, and I suggest that you take another look into it.
I'm still curious as to whether or not you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign on Earth ("The Millennium").
Yakuda
Verified User
It's absolutely vital but I like how that has become your back stop position. Jesus is crystal clear what he is saying. It's hilarious. All I have to do is revert back to his words. This is why there are 20,000 non Catholic. Christian denominations.
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
This particular discussion has already been had. You're still stuck with the issue that, under your understanding of Jesus' words, Jesus is claiming that all partakers of holy communion receive eternal life. That's simply not true.
OR, you could realize that Jesus' words in those particular passages actually hold spiritual significance rather than literal significance. Jesus' point was that, just as eating and drinking are absolute requirements for physical life, belief in Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection is an absolute requirement for spiritual life. That's what his "eating his flesh" and "drinking his blood" statements metaphorically symbolize.
Supposedly there are "an estimated" "over 45,000" Christian denominations in total (in addition to all the non-denominational churches that exist). Are the remaining 25,000 denominations Catholic denominations? Why are there 25,000 Catholic denominations?
Regardless, I'm still much more concerned about your erroneous belief regarding "loss of salvation", and on a lesser side note, I'm still curious as to whether or not you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign on Earth ("The Millennium") (see: Revelation, Chapter 20). You keep evading discussion about those two things.
Yakuda
Verified User
So Jesus lied? Got it