Karen Read guilty of driving under the influence.

Walt said:
No, if you feel I am in the wrong, feel free to educate me.

Here is a question: do you think Read is actually innocent? Or do you think investigation of Read was so poorly done, that she should be found not guilty? There is a serious difference between the two.


There are plenty of Blacks serving a lot of time under those exact same circumstances.

But here is a question, why were the police so shy about collecting evidence on her? Was it because she was an upper middle class, good looking white woman?


And she was upper middle class, so could hire credible sounding expert defense witnesses.


Where I disagree is that this entire investigation was completely botched. The verdict is wrong, because the process used to get to that verdict is wrong. The best you can say about the verdict is that given what a disaster the process was, it was the best possible verdict.
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The predominant opinion among Massachusetts residents is that Karen Read was innocent of having anything to do at all with the death of the police officer,

but far more important than that,
that police themselves were a significant factor in the death,
and actively tried to frame Read to get heat off themselves.

This isn't the view of nutty conspiracy theorists.
This view exists within BPD.
I have a very reliable source.

As for imprisoned blacks, America is a racially heterogenous nation,
and racially heterogenous nations are afflicted with virulent racism.
That's just what should be an obvious fact, but too many optimists refuse to recognize it.

I have no doubt that many people of color are incarcerated on sketchy evidence,
but that doesn't mean others should be as well.

We need fewer bad convictions, not more.

The Police were NOT shy about collecting evidence on Read.
They were shy of accumulating evidence that exculpated her and made them look suspicious.
Again, this belief also exists within BPD.
The department is not a club or fraternity.
There are lots of officers who seriously dislike one another.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
The predominant opinion among Massachusetts residents is that Karen Read was innocent of having anything to do at all with the death of the police officer,

but far more important than that,
that police themselves were a significant factor in the death,
and actively tried to frame Read to get heat off themselves.

This isn't the view of nutty conspiracy theorists.
This view exists within BPD.
I have a very reliable source.

As for imprisoned blacks, America is a racially heterogenous nation,
and racially heterogenous nations are afflicted with virulent racism.
That's just what should be an obvious fact, but too many optimists refuse to recognize it.

I have no doubt that many people of color are incarcerated on sketchy evidence,
but that doesn't mean others should be as well.

We need fewer bad convictions, not more.

The Police were NOT shy about collecting evidence on Read.
They were shy of accumulating evidence that exculpated her and made them look suspicious.
Again, this belief also exists within BPD.
The department is not a club or fraternity.
There are lots of officers who seriously dislike one another.
Click to expand...
^^^Conspiracy theorist^^^
 
NiftyNiblick said:
that police themselves were a significant factor in the death,
and actively tried to frame Read to get heat off themselves.
Click to expand...
So you do not believe that Read was driving a car that struck O'Keefe?

That is an honest question. I am not trying to argue with you, or assume anything, just trying to understand.

If Read was not driving a car that struck O'Keefe, then someone else killed O'Keefe, and that person needs to be found.

NiftyNiblick said:
The department is not a club or fraternity.
There are lots of officers who seriously dislike one another.
Click to expand...
Clubs and fraternities will often have members that seriously dislike one another. They usually try to keep their disagreements within the family, so your overall point might be right. They may be blaming the outsider for an internal fight.

Or maybe Read hit O'Keefe while drunk, and was able to pay people to create doubt of that.
 
The prosecutions theory was not that O'Keefe was killed by the collision but rather that the car struck O"Keefe's arm,
he hit his head falling down, and then died of hypothermia.

Just CHARGING 2nd degree murder for that is professional malfeasance, even if that's what actually went down.
Vehicular homicide was even a stretch since the alleged collision didn't kill him.
Leaving the scene of an accident where someone was injured was a legitimate charge if true,
and driving under the influence was undoubtedly true... and Read was convicted of that.

The defense's forensic experts said that O'Keefe's arm injuries were not consistent with being struck by a car at all.
They said the wound was consistent with dog bites.
More than one medical witness opined this.
There was a big dog at the party the cops were attending.

IT was theorized (although not proven) that O'Keefe was attacked by the dog at the party
while he was in a heated verbal argument with the dog's owner.
The cops were not alleged by anyone to have beaten O'Keefe to death,
but that O'Keefe was very loud and inebriated, and they threw him out of the house.
He drunkenly fell to the ground and died of hypothermia.

The cops would not testify to any of this out of fear of being considered responsible.
Instead, some believe, they tried to set Read up for the fall since most of them didn't care for her anyway.

There wasn't enough evidence presented to either prove or disprove any of the possibilities.
The most compelling, evidence, however, was that O'Keefe was never even struck by the car.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
The prosecutions theory was not that O'Keefe was killed by the collision but rather that the car struck O"Keefe's arm,
he hit his head falling down, and then died of hypothermia.
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If true, the car hitting O'Keefe's body caused him to hit his head, which in turn caused him to die of hypothermia. So the initial cause would be him being hit by a car. If the driver of the car was drunk, then the car accident was criminal act, and that becomes manslaughter.

Now if the driver of the car had called for help, rather than checking online how long someone can live in cold weather, then O'Keefe would have had a better chance of living. Is the lack of calling for help enough of an action to flip that up from manslaughter to murder? I can see the point that is a stretch.

There is a big if at the beginning of the next sentence. If Read was drunken driving her car, when it hit O'Keefe's arm, causing the whole series of incidents that killed him, she is guilty of manslaughter. Worse yet, because there was hours that she could have saved his life, she is almost guilty of murder.

The other side of the if is: if she did not hit him with her car, there is a murderer out there that must be found. I am really not seeing a third option here. Am I wrong?
 
Walt said:
The other side of the if is: if she did not hit him with her car, there is a murderer out there that must be found. I am really not seeing a third option here. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Everybody who dies isn't murdered.

If Read did not hit him with the car,
there could be others who contributed to O'Keefe's death,
or he could have just fallen down and did of hypothermia by accident.

The big problem is that the Commonwealth went all in on a murder charge from the outset,
and other possibilities were inadequately investigated when the evidence was fresh and more reliable.

The fact that police investigated in that manner casts suspicion on them,
even if no police personnel were directly involved with O'Keefe dying.

Even I don't begin to believe that O'Keefe was murdered by cops,
but cops may have been negligent in some way that contributed to his death.

We just don't know.
 
Walt said:
Boston has had a long history of racism issues in the police. Where have you been?
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I live in MA idiot. Your whole premise is there are zero successful black people in MA. This of course from a white liberal who obviously knows more about black people than themselves.
 
Sailor said:
I live in MA idiot. Your whole premise is there are zero successful black people in MA. This of course from a white liberal who obviously knows more about black people than themselves.
Click to expand...
Massachusetts had the first black US Senator ever elected by popular vote.
There were previous black senators when senators were chosen by the state legislatures prior to the 17th Amendment in 1913.
 
Walt said:
Good point. It would suggest a coverup of a killing, but obviously even that could have been a mistake.
Click to expand...
That's true, Walt.

It's possibly, in fact--not certain but possible---
that Read may have actually had some level of culpability beyond just driving driving under the influence,

But if you're only investing a homicide angle,
you're not going to find the relevant evidence for the real malfeasance while it's still fresh.

Prosecutors who overcharge to make a reputation for themselves
are not doing their constituents, the people, any favors.
 
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