Could A Good God Permit So Much Suffering?

[serenity]

As J. L. Mackie (1955, 200) formulated the so-called logical problem of evil:

God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; and yet evil exists. There seems to be some contradiction between these three propositions, so that if any two of them were true the third would be false. But at the same time all three are essential parts of most theological positions: the theologian, it seems, at once must and cannot consistently adhere to all three.

Could A Good God Permit So Much Suffering? A Debate

As J. L. Mackie (1955, 200) formulated the so-called logical problem of evil: God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; and yet evil exists. There seems to...

ndpr.nd.edu

Why is there a necessity to intellectually believe in God when chromosome reproductions are living evidence life exists as evolving in plain sight daily alive with each person living in series parallel space now as conceived by their previous ancestral lineage lived by adapting to the moment all the time.

4 12 hour corners of a rotation of the planet relative time logistics corrupt people dawn to dusk every rotation of the planet with just the power of suggesting now isn't eternity due to a perpetual universal time balancing as positioned here now conceived to decomposed displacement.

on the equator/tropics midnight to noon is same length of time as dawn to dusk as noon to midnight between dusk to dawn every rotation that has happened specifically within the ancestral lineages populating space evolving in single cycles daily here with 8.2 billion inhabiting space now.

Same can be said for eternal hell and economic theory. Life outside adapting in one's own time having to survive spontaneously in precise ancestral lineage and current generation gap living now positioned simultaneously here after rotation born until rotation died as part of the whole species native to this atmosphere.

Reasonable doubt genetics has always left each ancestor eternally separated in their own skin, personal heart beating, brain navigating time alive since fertilized cell to birth, cradle to grave, dead to decomposed.

Absolute power of suggesting now isn't eternity has absolutely corrupted every great great grandchild added within this atmosphere last 7,000 years of history recording how humans ignored life doesn't evolve more than equally timed existing in a specific ancestral lineage(black, brown, yellow, red, caucasian, 1 of 16 original great great grandparent generation gaps, 1 of 8 great great grandparent generation gaps, 1 of 4 grandparent generation gap, 1 of 2 parenting generation gaps conceiving each arriving great great grandchild to each specific ancestral lineage still reproducing a next generation gap every 20 years average.

7,000 years covers 350 generation gaps and there has only been 101 since the Story of Jesus mythologized a son of God of Abraham, not Allah or Buddha, pagan mythologies of multiple gods in vernacular tribalism in this atmosphere practiced by ancestral lineages defining themselves as contextual type cast people chromosomes don't mean shit until in a court of law used against the individual.

Every court in this atmosphere protects and defends ideas life exceeds adapting by heartbeats daily here by context in any tongue or alphabet of written languages...

Gee wonder what the original sin of humanity has been? self deception cradle to grave. those defending history won't stop pretending life isn't self evident time equally alive by personal heart beating and brain navigating around everyone else's beliefs 24/7.

 

[Cypress]

We are never going to agree on this issue. You won’t change my mind, you’ve tried before and didn’t succeed.

No problem, people are going to disagree about the atomic attack for decades to come.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed both history and evil.

Turning a blind way to evil leads to more evil as history has often proved. It's understandable why societies are reluctant to risk the lives of their citizens for anything less than an actual threat.

One example is 9/11. Post-Cold War, our government was quick to turn guns into butter. This continued despite the 1993 WTC bombing and multiple attacks on US personal and offices outside the US leading up to 9/11. Despite warnings, the majority of Americans didn't see the threat.

US leaders recognized the Axis threat but remained neutral through the 30s and early 40s leading up to Pearl Harbor. Lend-Lease toed the line on neutrality and was controversial when enacted in March 1941.

While good people should continue to push for doing good and facing evil, they should also understand that convincing the majority is rarely easy.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/us/1993-world-trade-center-bombing-fast-facts

Here’s some background information about the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, which killed six people and injured more than 1,000. Six suspects were convicted of directly participating in the bombing. The seventh suspect, Abdul Rahman Yasin, is still at large.

What was the Lend-Lease Act? | USAFacts

The Lend-Lease Act allowed the US to provide supplies to Allied powers in exchange for long-term leases for military bases around the world.

usafacts.org

The United States enacted the Lend-Lease Act in March 1941 to support the Allied powers in World War II without directly entering the conflict. The Lend-Lease Act law enabled the US to send weapons, ammunition, food, and equipment to the Allied forces.

In exchange, the Allied powers gave the United States long-term leases at military bases around the world and promised billions in future monies.

Our great sin as Americans was the evil of slavery, and this country paid a high cost to confront and eradicate that evil.

You're right that there is frequently a desire to avoid confronting evil. British people did not want to listen to Churchill about the looming threat of Nazi Germany.

I doubt most Americans in the 1930s were widely familiar with the war crimes Japan was committing in China and Korea. Millions of Chinese and Korean citizens perished under a regime of mass murder and systematic brutalization.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Our great sin as Americans was the evil of slavery, and this country paid a high cost to confront and eradicate that evil.

You're right that there is frequently a desire to avoid confronting evil. British people did not want to listen to Churchill about the looming threat of Nazi Germany.

I doubt most Americans in the 1930s were widely familiar with the war crimes Japan was committing in China and Korea. Millions of Chinese and Korean citizens perished under a regime of mass murder and systematic brutalization.

Slavery is allowed in the Bible. It's not like the US invented it. Slavery immigrated to the New World. The fact the Founders didn't stop it with the Constitution points out the dilemma; without the 3/5s compromise, there would have been no Constitution.

Americans in the 1930s, even up through Jim Crow, were still as racist as much of the world. It appears American Exceptionalism doesn't include a bigot-free society.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

We are never going to agree on this issue. You won’t change my mind, you’ve tried before and didn’t succeed.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm simply explaining my reasoning and leaving it up for others to decide for themselves.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

why did we nuke Japan and not Germany for wwII?

central bankers racism?

yes.

^^^
Proof Fredo doesn't know history.

Here's the short version, Fredo:

1. The Trinity test was July 16, 1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_(nuclear_test)
2. Hitler shot himself 2.5 months earlier on 30APR45 and Germany surrendered a week later on 8MAY45....9 weeks before the atomic bomb was first tested.

FWIW, not only was dropping an atomic bomb debatable for moral reasons, but for military reasons since it could have been a dud. The US bluffed Japan by declaring we were dozens of these bombs. We had none. We were out and it would take months to process more uranium and plutonium.

 

[Cypress]

Slavery is allowed in the Bible. It's not like the US invented it. Slavery immigrated to the New World. The fact the Founders didn't stop it with the Constitution points out the dilemma; without the 3/5s compromise, there would have been no Constitution.

Americans in the 1930s, even up through Jim Crow, were still as racist as much of the world. It appears American Exceptionalism doesn't include a bigot-free society.

I'm saying that by 1860, slavery in the western world was widely recognized as profoundly immoral, and had been banned everywhere but United States and Brazil.

I'm convinced the vast majority of Americans knew it was immoral in 1860 if they searched their conscience, but a lot of people rationalized keeping slavery for economic and social reasons.

I just think if I am going to write about morality and evil on a geopolitical scale, I should not represent the United States as a pure saintly nation among our international peers.

 

[Cypress]

^^^
Proof Fredo doesn't know history.

Here's the short version, Fredo:

1. The Trinity test was July 16, 1945. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_(nuclear_test)
2. Hitler shot himself 2.5 months earlier on 30APR45 and Germany surrendered a week later on 8MAY45....9 weeks before the atomic bomb was first tested.

FWIW, not only was dropping an atomic bomb debatable for moral reasons, but for military reasons since it could have been a dud. The US bluffed Japan by declaring we were dozens of these bombs. We had none. We were out and it would take months to process more uranium and plutonium.

I was always a little troubled that we didn't give Japan more of a warning about what they faced, but as you say there wasn't enough enriched plutonium for a demonstration detonation.

The Potsdam Declaration was supposed to satisfy our moral obligation to issue Japan a warning. Japan was was warned in the declaration to immediately surrender unconditionally, or else face 'prompt and utter destruction'.

 

[Margot]

Slavery is allowed in the Bible. It's not like the US invented it. Slavery immigrated to the New World. The fact the Founders didn't stop it with the Constitution points out the dilemma; without the 3/5s compromise, there would have been no Constitution.

Americans in the 1930s, even up through Jim Crow, were still as racist as much of the world. It appears American Exceptionalism doesn't include a bigot-free society.

Slavery isn't allowed in the Bible,the Bible reports on slavery in ancient times.
No different then saying the Bible allows Peter to deny Jesus three times

 

[Margot]

I'm saying that by 1860, slavery in the western world was widely recognized as profoundly immoral, and had been banned everywhere but United States and Brazil.

I'm convinced the vast majority of Americans knew it was immoral in 1860 if they searched their conscience, but a lot of people rationalized keeping slavery for economic and social reasons.

I just think if I am going to write about morality and evil on a geopolitical scale, I should not represent the United States as a pure saintly nation among our international peers.

The average Southerner,absolutely thought slavery was God sent to Southerners, after all they were bringing Jesus to the Blacks.

 

[Cypress]

The average Southerner,absolutely thought slavery was God sent to Southerners, after all they were bringing Jesus to the Blacks.

Southern slave owners as prominent as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, George Mason came to believe there was a moral dimension to slavery that harmed the nation. So I am convinced a lot of southerners who genuinely searched their conscience knew there was a moral dimension to slavery, they just came up economic or psuedo-biblical rationalizations to maintain slavery.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I was always a little troubled that we didn't give Japan more of a warning about what they faced, but as you say there wasn't enough enriched plutonium for a demonstration detonation.

The Potsdam Declaration was supposed to satisfy our moral obligation to issue Japan a warning. Japan was was warned in the declaration to immediately surrender unconditionally, or else face 'prompt and utter destruction'.

We'd been warning them since late December 1941.

Those arguing that the US should have given warning to Japan about bombing them are using the same arguments as those whining that Ashli Babbitt was shot without warning....over 2 hours later after Trump's Traitors first overran the police barricades.

Those who seek to destroy the Constitution of the United States should be stopped.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Southern slave owners as prominent as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, George Mason came to believe there was a moral dimension to slavery that harmed the nation. So I am convinced a lot of southerners who genuinely searched their conscience knew there was a moral dimension to slavery, they just came up economic or psuedo-biblical rationalizations to maintain slavery.

Even Lincoln was a racist. He was a man of his times.

A good question is "Where are we going?" Second question being "Why?"

 

[gmark77]

I literally wrote that the intent and goals of a war can be morally justifiable.

The reason I asked about that is because Truman had available to him an option which was to demonstrate the bomb. There's a lot to be said about the long-term outcome of that approach but many of the Los Alamos scientists proposed it for the very reasons that it would be more moral.

I sure hope you believe the decision to defeat the Third Reich and Imperial Japan was morally justified.

Of course I do. But there are ways to do things less or more "morally". You claim murder of innocents is immoral full stop. It's a universal moral truth in your world. If one is presented with TWO options and ONE of them involves the incineration of thousands of innocent children I should think you would agree that dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was the LESS MORAL option.

In summary, I just don't dislike and loathe the Hebrew Bible the way you do

It seems to really upset you that people still talk about the Old Testament. Sounds like you might have the problem and not me. I know what it says. I don't have to defend or justify the "moral truths" from the Creator of the Universe. That's for those who believe in such things.

 

[Cypress]

Even Lincoln was a racist. He was a man of his times.

A good question is "Where are we going?" Second question being "Why?"

It does not follow that being a racist equates supporting slavery.

Lincoln thought slavery was immoral, and that black were entitled to the natural rights of liberty, life, and pursuit of happiness.
But like most northern white men, he thought blacks were socially inferior to whites and they could not be given political rights. He even briefly toyed with the idea of American blacks moving back to Africa.

 

[Hume]

The problem is monism. One God does and does not allow suffering.

 

[gmark77]

Slavery isn't allowed in the Bible,

What? What about literally all the verses in which it not only suggests to slaves to serve their masters but also how masters are to treat their slaves.

For a book that CLEARLY states murder is wrong it never quite gets around to saying enslavement is wrong.

 

[Cypress]

We'd been warning them since late December 1941.

Those arguing that the US should have given warning to Japan about bombing them are using the same arguments as those whining that Ashli Babbitt was shot without warning....over 2 hours later after Trump's Traitors first overran the police barricades.

Those who seek to destroy the Constitution of the United States should be stopped.

Given the conditions of the time, I generally think the Potsdam Declaration cleared the moral bar as to meeting our obligation to warn Japan what was coming.

A warning of "prompt and utter destruction" is an unmistakable statement that imminent doom is going to be visited on Japan unless they immediately surrendered unconditionally.

 

[gmark77]

The problem is monism. One God does and does not allow suffering.

Oh it seems he definitely allows suffering. Just look at the Book of Job.

I actually love the first part of the book of Job (I really dislike the ending). But it is an amazing treatise on suffering and pain. It kind of is this thread in a nutshell. Why would God let this sort of thing happen?

(Turns out he lets this sort of thing happen because, as we learn in Job, he can. And that humans have no standing to question it).

 

[Yakuda]

That's interesting. I will admit when I deconverted it wasn't an easy time for me. It did involve realizing there was no one there for me. Unlike you I had to face the world as it is, not according to my fantasies of a big daddy protector.

Does that make me sad? Sometimes, but there really isn't any other option for me. Religion was corrosive to me, it was hurting me having unsubstantiated beliefs for no other reason than fear of punishment by a vengeful God and when I realized God never spoke to me or revealed himself to me despite my fervent prayers, I began to think maybe there was nothing there.

While it's not a spiritual path for everyone, it was for me.



It is EXACTLY the same. Eternal punishment for finite crimes committed by someone who doesn't have all the information the punisher

I face the world as it is because I know what a woman is. I also didnt "deconvert" because I didnt get the pony i prayed for like most of you atheists.

Youre the consummate pussy/leftist/atheist you want to do whatever the fuck you please and expect not to pay any consequences for your choices. dipshit