Crazy Trump's tariffs are backfiring on the U.S.

[Trumpet]

Except it's not just Trump. It's why I posted the thread from 2008 with liberals on here complaining about free trade. And Bernie's whole message, and a big part of his appeal, is saying free trade rips off American workers.

It's like there is a mental block on this board that makes it so difficult to have a discussion that isn't only about Trump. There had been pushback against free trade brewing in this country for years. Trump and Bernie tapped into it.

Nice try at deflection.

 

[QP!]

I can respond to other comments but I still go back to, why did Biden leave the tariffs in place? It's bad policy and it was easy to overturn with another E.O. But he didn't.

There can absolutely be a good reason to use tariffs such as another country trying to protect an industry they consider key and thus artificially lowering the costs for their industry (tax wavers, subsidies, etc) to make their costs lower so they can then sell in to the US market and take business away from US manufacturers. When that happens, applying a tariff increases the cost back up to where it should be to ensure fair competition.


But what Trump is broadly trying to do now is increase the cost of goods coming in so high that companies will decide they must produce in the uS even if all costs are higher and not just because of deceptive trade practices.

That is bad for almost all as it helps harm more efficient manufacturers elsewhere and raises costs for all.

BUt it can be a big vote buyer for Politicians from people who want those artificially high paying jobs and industries and do not care about long term impacts as long as they are getting paid.

It is why it is very hard for new POTUS to undue them and you have seen in the past how the 'hard medicine' of cutting tariffs was a battle only a few key POTUS thru history would take on, even though it was widely known it should be done.

It is a very similar dynamic to why so few POTUS will pay down debt, as no voter gets excited by austerity or seeing a bill reduced and if instead that money, plus even boring more (as Trump does) during good times is used to juice the economy even more, the voters then feel richer than ever. It is very harmful long term but it buys votes, especially amongst the poorly educated.

 

[Ross Dolan]

He left most of the big ones, especially on China, in place. So essentially you're saying most of Trump's tariffs were "appropriate"?

He left some of the ones on China in place...and re-negotiated MOST of the ones with Europe. MOST of them were reduced.

I am saying very specifically that JOE BIDEN thought that most of the tariffs were NOT appropriate...and renegotiated some of the European ones downward...and some of the ones on China upwards.

As for my thoughts...I expressed them plainly. Here it is again:

I SUSPECT Biden left the ones in place he thought were appropriate...and took steps to reassess those he thought were not.

 

[cawacko]

Nice try at whitewashing Crazy Trump's bungling.

Ah yeah, that's my bad. You're right. Even though I've said for years I don't support tariffs or Trump's use of tariffs, and it's one of the reason's I've never voted for him even though I'm a life long Republican, I'm just here whitewashing for him. You got me.

It’s like people get on this board and their brain shuts off. It's Trump or bust. The idea that there has been pushback against free trade building for years and progressives like Bernie have gotten strong support for their anti free trade stances, is irrelevant. To discuss that would mean leaving your tribal bubble and safety net.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Ah yeah, that's my bad. You're right. Even though I've said for years I don't support tariffs or Trump's use of tariffs, and it's one of the reason's I've never voted for him even though I'm a life long Republican, I'm just here whitewashing for him. You got me.

It’s like people get on this board and their brain shuts off. It's Trump or bust. The idea that there has been pushback against free trade building for years and progressives like Bernie have gotten strong support for their anti free trade stances, is irrelevant. To discuss that would mean leaving your tribal bubble and safety net.

 

[cawacko]

He left some of the ones on China in place...and re-negotiated MOST of the ones with Europe. MOST of them were reduced.

I am saying very specifically that JOE BIDEN thought that most of the tariffs were NOT appropriate...and renegotiated some of the European ones downward...and some of the ones on China upwards.

As for my thoughts...I expressed them plainly. Here it is again:

I SUSPECT Biden left the ones in place he thought were appropriate...and took steps to reassess those he thought were not.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to bartenderelite, since tone can be tough to tell on here, I'm not yelling at or trying to "argue" with you. I'm saying all this in a conversational tone so I hope it comes across as that.

I just keep coming back to the fact that Biden still kept a good number of the tariffs. That undercuts the claims others are making about them.

I admit I’m pretty ideological in being against tariffs, but I also recognize free trade isn’t perfect. Even with that, I’m strongly opposed to tariffs and trade wars, which is why I disagreed with both Trump and Biden on this.

 

[Damocles]

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to bartenderelite, since tone can be tough to tell on here, I'm not yelling at or trying to "argue" with you. I'm saying all this in a conversational tone so I hope it comes across as that.

I just keep coming back to the fact that Biden still kept a good number of the tariffs. That undercuts the claims others are making about them.

I admit I’m pretty ideological in being against tariffs, but I also recognize free trade isn’t perfect. Even with that, I’m strongly opposed to tariffs and trade wars, which is why I disagreed with both Trump and Biden on this.

And Bernie, and on and on... Tons of folks love some tariffs, I am not one of them. The issue Trump has, really, is that he will not settle and keep anything, the randomness of the tariff/not tariffs, some are suspended some are not, then suddenly new ones are proposed... The economy is almost always affected negatively when there is no constancy in costs.... While being random and unpredictable can help you negotiate... it does not help the economy in any way. If he gets things done and settled we will see what he's done to the economy, right now all we see are the effects of the random.

 

[cawacko]

And Bernie, and on and on... Tons of folks love some tariffs, I am not one of them. The issue Trump has, really, is that he will not settle and keep anything, the randomness of the tariff/not tariffs, some are suspended some are not, then suddenly new ones are proposed... The economy is almost always affected negatively when there is no constancy in costs.... While being random and unpredictable can help you negotiate... it does not help the economy in any way. If he gets things done and settled we will see what he's done to the economy, right now all we see are the effects of the random.

(As an aside, do you remember that uscitizen post from 2008 I posted earlier ITT where we got called out for not caring about the working folks because we're free traders?)

I agree. Tariffs are bad policy on their own, and the uncertainty makes it worse.

 

[gfm7175]

There's too much data to casually try to tap dance around.

Three recessions during the last three consecutive Republican administrations, and four if Trump 2.0 causes another one.

Zero recessions in the 20 years the last three consecutive Democratic presidents held office.

See my prior response to you. You're just repeating the same thing, which I've already addressed.

 

[Trumpet]

See my prior response to you. You're just repeating the same thing, which I've already addressed.

You poor pathetic soul; who just can't accept the fact that your fuhrer is a totally failure and loser.

 

[gfm7175]

Heard this arguement before, “it very largely doesn’t get passed on,” which is a big assumption especially with small businesses

It's not an assumption, anchovies, it's what actually happens. Have you seen the "tariff markup" on goods yet? I sure haven't...

And America’s economy in the 1800’s, in fact the world’s economy at that time, is no way comparable to today

Tariffs work the very same way today as they worked in the 1800s. Nothing has changed in that regard.

 

[Trumpet]

It's not an assumption, anchovies, it's what actually happens. Have you seen the "tariff markup" on goods yet? I sure haven't...

Tariffs work the very same way today as they worked in the 1800s. Nothing has changed in that regard.

So now, we are going to get a lecture on Trumpian Economics.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to bartenderelite, since tone can be tough to tell on here, I'm not yelling at or trying to "argue" with you. I'm saying all this in a conversational tone so I hope it comes across as that.

It comes across as conversational. My own tone tends to get angry sounding...and I do not want it to be so, although my wife tells me I sound that way even when I am saying, "gesundheit" after a sneeze. Let's just discuss what we have to discuss. I never mean nastiness to you.

I just keep coming back to the fact that Biden still kept a good number of the tariffs. That undercuts the claims others are making about them.

I am not sure what "the others" are saying about them. Like others here, I wish tariffs would go out of fashion. I do not see them doing any of the "protection" attributed to them...and using them to gain an advantage for our nation seems like a sure-fire way of ending up doing the exact opposite.

I admit I’m pretty ideological...

Aren't most of us!

I despise what I see as the damage Trump is doing...and I see no real benefit in his policies, whatever they happen to be from day to day. My guess is that America will be much the worst for having him setting policy for the next 3 1/2 years...especially the way he is doing it.

in being against tariffs, but I also recognize free trade isn’t perfect.

It is not. We are in agreement there. I do not see tariffs as a remedial factor...and consider them more likely to exacerbate the problem than lessen it.

Even with that, I’m strongly opposed to tariffs and trade wars, which is why I disagreed with both Trump and Biden on this.

Okay.

 

[Damocles]

(As an aside, do you remember that uscitizen post from 2008 I posted earlier ITT where we got called out for not caring about the working folks because we're free traders?)

I agree. Tariffs are bad policy on their own, and the uncertainty makes it worse.

lol. Yeah. I remember.

 

[Cypress]

See my prior response to you. You're just repeating the same thing, which I've already addressed.

No amount of fancy dancing on your part is going to change a long string of economic facts going back over 35 years into the 20th century.

 

[gfm7175]

...that are passed on to the buyer.

People keep parroting this leftist media claim, but I've yet to personally experience it. I was told that I'd notice it in Q2; that didn't happen. I was then told "just wait until Q3"; that didn't happen either. Now I'm told to wait until Q4... ... ... ???

Just face it, it ISN'T HAPPENING and it ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. This has already been shown historically.

Magats who are poorly educated need to understand that.

My understanding isn't the understanding that is lacking here.

Tariffs are simply a COST

You would've been correct if you would've stopped right here. Tariffs are a COST (technically to the importer --who pays the government--, but the exporter might realistically take on some of that cost too, as well as others involved with the distribution and selling of the goods).

the seller must incorporate in to their selling price.

They are not a magic cost. Sellers do not look at these type costs differently when setting a selling price.

A seller adds up Cost A + Cost B + Cost C, etc to determine 'total cost to bring a product to market' and then they calculate their target Margin and ROI for when they sell that product.

The seller does not say 'oh Cost A increase is because the union manufacturing the item got a raise' so i am ok raising my selling prices to maintain my margins but since Cost B increase is from tariffs i will not pass it on and eat and just live with lower margins.,

There is absolutely no demand that the retail seller MUST incorporate any sort of "tariff expense" into their selling price. They already sell their items for what people are willing to pay for them... They're not going to "price people out" of their items (a larger hit in profits) because of an itty bitty tariff (a much smaller hit in profits).

As we saw in the pandemic sellers will always eventually pass on those increased costs even if they do not want to be first in their sector to do so.

What does "the pandemic" (???) have to do with anything? Prices of goods and services rose during the Autopen Regime because they passed the Inflation Production Act (Kamabla cast the tie breaker vote in favor of it) that reduced the purchasing power of the dollar.

You're mad at high prices? Blame Kamabla (and Team Democrat) for passing the Inflation Production Act (and shutting down state economies over irrational fear of a virus that's no worse than a typical cold/flu).

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Tariffs can work in limited ways to protect certain industries. It's why unions, are often their Democratic supporters in office, supported them. But on the whole they have a negative impact on jobs and growth.

What's funny is how the politics have flipped. Prior to 2016, most Republicans weren't fans of tariffs while many Democrats supported them. Then Biden kept nearly all of Trump’s tariffs in place and even added more, yet Democrats barely said a word. Now that Trump is back in office, tariffs are suddenly bad again.

You'd be hard pressed to find many economists who support tariffs. And no, most Democrats do not despite what you may believe. They cause inflation and are a tax on consumers.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Apparently, Crazy Trump is not going to change a tradition.

Unless, of course, it involves paving over the Rose Garden.

 

[Phantasmal]

You'd be hard pressed to find many economists who support tariffs. And no, most Democrats do not despite what you may believe. They cause inflation and are a tax on consumers.

Tariffs are useful when applied properly, DonOld does not do that. Obamas were applied to protect American industries and jobs. Who knows what DonOld is doing, except hurting small businesses and farmers, plus raising costs for American consumers.

 

[cawacko]

You'd be hard pressed to find many economists who support tariffs. And no, most Democrats do not despite what you may believe. They cause inflation and are a tax on consumers.

You are correct, not many economists support tariffs. As far as Democrats, read through the thread. Plenty here saying they don't have issues with tariffs per se, they just don't like how Trump is doing it.

But yes, there are certainly very pro free trade Democrats out there.

Edit: I know you didn't say this but since I'm here I'll just respond now. And that's the idea that if applied properly tariffs protect American industries and jobs. That's the ultimate free lunch theory. Tariffs can shield certain industries and jobs, but the tradeoff is higher costs, slower growth, and job losses elsewhere.