Antifa, not just an idea but a bunch of terrorists

[QP!]

And the better summary is:

- some groups that are violent are Christian groups sharing crosses and other symbols
- Christianity uses crosses

By Terrys own prior reasoning if connect shared symbology is one key factor in labelling the entire ideology of Christianity, Anti Fascism as cirminal.

I do not agree with Terry on that but that is what he said.

 

[RB 60]

No that is your argument.

You are the one trying to connect 'some groups using symbology' with then "Christians or Antifascism ideologies being violent'.

I am the one saying you cannot blame the ideologies, Christianity/Anti Fascism', with the actions of 'some groups'.

So you got it exactly backwards trying to pin your argument on me and i do not make stupid arguments like you do.

 

[Damocles]

And the better summary is:

- some groups that are violent are Christian groups sharing crosses and other symbols
- Christianity uses crosses

By Terrys own prior reasoning if connect shared symbology is one key factor in labelling the entire ideology of Christianity, Anti Fascism as cirminal.

I do not agree with Terry on that but that is what he said.

If they are Christians and terrorists, they would be a Christian Terrorist group even if it is inconvenient to other Christians.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

No that is your argument.

My argument is

Antifa is violent
Antifa is organized
Antifa practices organized violence.

You are the one trying to connect 'some groups using symbology' with then "Christians or Antifascism ideologies being violent'.

I am the one saying you cannot blame the ideologies, Christianity/Anti Fascism', with the actions of 'some groups'.

So you got it exactly backwards trying to pin your argument on me and i do not make stupid arguments like you do.

You on the other hand, keep conflating two different groups then apply the characteristics of one of those groups to the other. You keep making the fallacy of four terms as a result

Put another way your argument is:

Christians share a common set of symbols, etc.
Violent Christians use those symbols
All Christians are violent.

It's a fallacy of four terms but you can't grasp that.

It would be like me saying

Antifa is violent
Antifa is Leftist
All Leftists are violent.

That's not true either for the same reason. It's a fallacy of four terms.

 

[QP!]

Right, you just quoted me answering someone that literally said they do not exist, then tried to wipe them from history by pretending that we would not call a Christian Terrorist group a Christian Terrorist group because other Christians exist that are not part of the group we are talking about.

Your problem is, you do not want them to exist so you want me to pretend they do not exist. Calling Antifa Terrorists, well, Antifa Terrorists is simply describing exactly what they are, and they exist.

Thankfully we are at the point where we are all agreeing they actually exist. Now trying to get me to stop calling an Antifa Terrorist group an Antifa Terrorist group will wind up being your central argument. I should ignore that they exist because you think I should because it is inconvenient to your argument.

I do not care if it inconveniences you. These groups actually do exist, and we will continue to call them what they are.

False.

You have struggled to understand this concept from the start.

No one, NO ONE, is saying ideologies such as Christianity, Islam, Anti Fascism, Pro Buddhism, Judaism, Humanism, Secularim, atheism and many more do not exist.

it is your inability to understand this discussion that keeps dragging you back to stupid.

What does not exist is the ability to label ANY OF THE ABOVE ideologies an organization that you could criminalize or call terrorist because a person or group who subscribes to them does a criminal act.

They do not EXIST AS ORGANIZATIONS IN THAT FORM, as every US intelligence and policing agency told you prior to Trump.

Christianity DOES NOT EXIST in a way you could call it criminal or terrorist simply because Army of God is Christian and does acts in the ideologies name.

 

[RB 60]

If they are Christians and terrorists, they would be a Christian Terrorist group even if it is inconvenient to other Christians.

QP can't show where there is a violent Christian group.
He should refrain from hating on groups who contribute to his local food bank since he doesn't contribute a thing (but probably is the first in line for the free food).

 

[T. A. Gardner]

QP can't show where there is a violent Christian group.
He should refrain from hating on groups who contribute to his local food bank since he doesn't contribute a thing (but probably is the first in line for the free food).

QP is trying to use a logical fallacy that conflates all Christians with small fringe groups of Christians and then extends that to Antifa in reverse.

See my post above for examples of how he's doing that.

 

[QP!]

If they are Christians and terrorists, they would be a Christian Terrorist group even if it is inconvenient to other Christians.

Yes they would. And no one has said otherwise.

But neither the ideology of Christianity nor being Against Fascism would be Terrorist organizations because of those actions.

Trump entire position is that is the ideology Christianity (Anti fascism) that is guilty and to be labelled criminal or terrorist for the actions of "Army of God' (insert Terry's groups here) and THAT is the entire argument and why you are wrong... and stupid Damo.

 

[QP!]

If they are Christians and terrorists, they would be a Christian Terrorist group even if it is inconvenient to other Christians.

See Damo. This is the stupidity Trump and magats are pushing and you are connected to by Terry below.

My argument is

Antifa is violent
Antifa is organized
Antifa practices organized violence.[/Terry]

 

[Damocles]

QP can't show where there is a violent Christian group.
He should refrain from hating on groups who contribute to his local food bank since he doesn't contribute a thing (but probably is the first in line for the free food).

Nah, the Army of God is a real organization, they commit violence against Abortion Clinics in the name of Christianity. These Christian Terrorists exist, even if I would find them inconvenient saying they do. His argument that because "all" people who say they are Antifa do not commit these violent acts, we should not call the Antifa Groups that do commit violence Antifa Terrorists. I disagree, I do not think you should call them other than what they are because it is inconvenient to folks who call themselves Antifa that "aren't violent"... I also do not think that walking in a parade one day means you are never violent. I think the membership of these two groups probably overlap more than he'd be willing to admit.

 

[QP!]

My argument is

Antifa is violent
Antifa is organized
Antifa practices organized violence.

You on the other hand, keep conflating two different groups then apply the characteristics of one of those groups to the other. You keep making the fallacy of four terms as a result

Put another way your argument is:

Christians share a common set of symbols, etc.
Violent Christians use those symbols
All Christians are violent.

It's a fallacy of four terms but you can't grasp that.

It would be like me saying

Antifa is violent
Antifa is Leftist
All Leftists are violent.

That's not true either for the same reason. It's a fallacy of four terms.

Sure that is your argument but it is stupid.

You created the criteria by which you judge an ideology bad and when i showed you instantly how that applies to Christianity you then try to say i created it.

Those were your criteria, not mine.

You can put forth nothing, NOTHING that can be used as criteria to show the anti fascism ideology as bad that will not apply to Christianity or most, if not all ideologies.,

You say stupid things you cannot back up.

Instead of merely saying 'Antifa bad' put forth the criteria that you judge that by, since you have run away from your prior criteria.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Sure that is your argument but it is stupid.

You created the criteria by which you judge an ideology bad and when i showed you instantly how that applies to Christianity you then try to say i created it.

Those were your criteria, not mine.

You can put forth nothing, NOTHING that can be used as criteria to show the anti fascism ideology as bad that will not apply to Christianity or most, if not all ideologies.,

You say stupid things you cannot back up.

Instead of merely saying 'Antifa bad' put forth the criteria that you judge that by, since you have run away from your prior criteria.

Ah, so now comes the insults and ad hominem...

I'm not the one trying to smear a huge group because of the actions of a small group within its ranks. You are.

 

[Damocles]

Ah, so now comes the insults and ad hominem...

I'm not the one trying to smear a huge group because of the actions of a small group within its ranks. You are.

He was using it as an example as to why we shouldn't call Antifa Terrorists what they are, because he says the ideology is shared with non-violent groups. Would you call these Christian Terrorists what they are, or would you deny it because it is inconvenient?

 

[QP!]

Nah, the Army of God is a real organization, they commit violence against Abortion Clinics in the name of Christianity. These Christian Terrorists exist, even if I would find them inconvenient saying they do. His argument that because "all" people who say they are Antifa do not commit these violent acts, we should not call the Antifa Groups that do commit violence Antifa Terrorists. I disagree, I do not think you should call them other than what they are because it is inconvenient to folks who call themselves Antifa that "aren't violent"... I also do not think that walking in a parade one day means you are never violent. I think the membership of these two groups probably overlap more than he'd be willing to admit.

No that is not my argument.

My argument is that simply because Army of God exists and is under christian ideology and because Torch Network (see Terry's post) exists and is under Anti Fascist ideology, and both of those orgs may do criminal acts, DOES NOT MEAN you can say Christianity or Anti Fascist ideology exists as organizations you can then label as criminal or terrorist.

Neither Christianity nor Anti fascism as ideologies exist in that way.

So stop lying about what i have said unless you are ok with me going in any and all threads and just lying about things you never said.

 

[QP!]

Ah, so now comes the insults and ad hominem...

I'm not the one trying to smear a huge group because of the actions of a small group within its ranks. You are.

but you did as you keep saying the Against Fascism movement, as represented by No Kings and other actions is violent, etc.

So you are lying as always.

which group did i say was responsible for the actions of a small group within their ranks? please quote me saying that.

 

[Damocles]

No that is not my argument.

My argument is that simply because Army of God exists and is under christian ideology and because Torch Network (see Terry's post) exists and is under Anti Fascist ideology, and both of those orgs may do criminal acts, DOES NOT MEAN you can say Christianity or Anti Fascist ideology exists as organizations you can then label as criminal or terrorist.

Neither Christianity nor Anti fascism as ideologies exist in that way.

So stop lying about what i have said unless you are ok with me going in any and all threads and just lying about things you never said.

I don't think anyone has said that every person who says they are Antifa are terrorists, that is where your disconnect lies. We simply recognize that Antifa Terrorists exist and plan to continue to call them what they are.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

He was using it as an example as to why we shouldn't call Antifa Terrorists what they are, because he says the ideology is shared with non-violent groups. Would you call these Christian Terrorists what they are, or would you deny it because it is inconvenient?

His argument tries to conflate all Christians with small groups of Christians that are terrorists or violent. I'm not doing that with Antifa. I'm saying Antifa--not the Left, not Progressives but Antifa--are terrorists. QP can't grasp that.

 

[QP!]

He was using it as an example as to why we shouldn't call Antifa Terrorists what they are, because he says the ideology is shared with non-violent groups. Would you call these Christian Terrorists what they are, or would you deny it because it is inconvenient?

I would call those groups what they are. Criminal or terrorist.

But i would not call 'Christianity' criminal or terrorist because of what those groups did.

Do you understand that difference Damo?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

but you did as you keep saying the Against Fascism movement, as represented by No Kings and other actions is violent, etc.

So you are lying as always.

No Kings isn't an antifascist movement. It's an anti-monarchy / anti-dictatorship movement. I made zero claims about other Leftist groups being violent. Yes, some are, but I wasn't arguing that. I'm saying Antifa is both organized and violent.

 

[Damocles]

I would call those groups what they are. Criminal or terrorist.

But i would not call 'Christianity' criminal or terrorist because of what those groups did.

Do you understand that difference Damo?

Christianity is not an organization, Antifa is an organization. If they called themselves something different we'd use that name. Like "Army of God"...