Historicity of the martydoms of the apostles

C

Cypress

Well-known member
Based on a book I read.

ApostleLikelihood their martyrdom is historically true
PeterHighest probability of being true
PaulVery probably true
James, brother of JesusVery probably true
James, son of ZebedeeVery probably true
John, son of ZebedeeImprobable
AndrewMore probable than not
PhillipLess plausible than not
BartholomewAs plausible as not
MatthewImprobable
ThomasMore plausible than not
James, son of AlphaeusAs plausible as not
ThaddeusAs plausible as not
Simon the zealotAs plausible as not
MatthiasAs plausible as not
 
So? Who cares?

Oh I know! You're gonna claim that because they were martyred they must have really believed in the truth of the Gospel and truth of Jesus! Ergo you aren't an agnostic anymore!

Why don't you just come out and CONFESS that you are a believer. Why play falsely that you are an "agnostic"? That's lying. God doesn't like that.

Look, Cy, if you have religious belief people will actually RESPECT YOU MORE if you are honest about it.

But right now you just make a mockery of the faith you seem to be defending. Seriously dude, you are pissing on the memory of Jesus being so dishonest in defense of Jesus.
 
If the martyrs prove the reality of the gospels then I guess we all have to be "agnostic" that David Koresh was actually Jeeeezus!

Wow. Cy. Good job. You've made more agnostics.

I'm not agnostic, David Koresh wasn't Jesus, Cy. Too bad you can't say that.
 
Cypress said:
Based on a book I read.

ApostleLikelihood their martyrdom is historically true
PeterHighest probability of being true
PaulVery probably true
James, brother of JesusVery probably true
James, son of ZebedeeVery probably true
John, son of ZebedeeImprobable
AndrewMore probable than not
PhillipLess plausible than not
BartholomewAs plausible as not
MatthewImprobable
ThomasMore plausible than not
James, son of AlphaeusAs plausible as not
ThaddeusAs plausible as not
Simon the zealotAs plausible as not
MatthiasAs plausible as not
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The apostle John did not die a martyrs death
 
gmark77 said:
If the martyrs prove the reality of the gospels then I guess we all have to be "agnostic" that David Koresh was actually Jeeeezus!

Wow. Cy. Good job. You've made more agnostics.

I'm not agnostic, David Koresh wasn't Jesus, Cy. Too bad you can't say that.
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So explain to us why they would die for something that is false? I'm a believer but I genuinely would like to hear your explanation for why they might have allowed such a thing to happen to them. They all had plenty of chances to walk away from it.
 
Yakuda said:
The apostle John did not die a martyrs death
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This author classifies it as improbable.

John's sudden disappearance from Acts, and circumstantial evidence outside the canon suggest his untimely demise, but it's considered highly unreliable.
 
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Yakuda said:
So explain to us why they would die for something that is false?
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Because they didn't believe it was false. Duh. Doesn't mean it was true.

Yakuda said:
I'm a believer but I genuinely would like to hear your explanation for why they might have allowed such a thing to happen to them. They all had plenty of chances to walk away from it.
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Sure, the folks who died in Waco could have just walked out to safety before the fire. So I guess since they didn't that we all must believe that David Koresh was, indeed, really Jesus returned.

Does David Koresh still work miracles in your life?
 
gmark77 said:
If the martyrs prove the reality of the gospels then I guess we all have to be "agnostic" that David Koresh was actually Jeeeezus!
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You have to prove David Koresh actually knew he was dying for a lie, dying for a complete fabrication and hoax.

By all accounts, he was a nut job who actually believed he was a prophet.
 
gmark77 said:
Why do I have to prove that? It is immaterial to the point. I'm not talking about Koresh himself, I'm talking about his followers.
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You have to prove they knew their Branch Davidian religion was a hoax based on lies and fabrications.

I never claimed the martyrdom of the apostles proved the New testament is true.

I said it proves they genuinely believed in the teachings and the resurrection of Christ. It's not something they conspired to invent and fabricate while drinking wine in the tavern.
 
Cypress said:
The apostles are some of the most important and well known people in the history of western civilization.

If you're not interested in history, go talk to someone about pedophilia. There's plenty of threads about that.
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LOL. It was your point, you know why you posted it, I do too. I was just jumping ahead to your actual point. You have stated it before: you believe that because they allowed themselves to die for a belief that the belief must ipso facto be worthy of at least consideration and belief. Hence you are agnostic.

It also means you MUST be agnostic as to David Koresh being the actual risen Lord Jesus.

You cannot get out of this. If your reasoning rests on one pillar it rests on the other pillar.

You are agnostic about David Koresh's divinity. QED. Good job.
 
Cypress said:
You have to prove they knew their Branch Davidian religion was a hoax based on lies and fabrications.
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The believers may believe a man who is lying to them. The believers may believe a man who is confused and actually thinks he's Jesus.

Cypress said:
I never claimed the martyrdom of the apostles proved the New testament is true.
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Yes you did. Stop lying:

Here you go, Dr. Dishonesty:
Cypress said:
You can say everyone is lying, but then you are getting into conspiracy theory land, and you would also have to explain why Peter, James, and Paul were willing to be executed for something they knew was a lie.
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gmark77 said:
The believers may believe a man who is lying to them. The believers may believe a man who is confused and actually thinks he's Jesus.
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You're free to believe Jesus was a liar and conman, and the apostles hallucinated about seeing him after the crucifixion.
gmark77 said:
Yes you did. Stop lying:

Here you go, Dr. Dishonesty:
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:lolup: :lolup:

That's exactly what I said 20 minutes ago. The apostles would not have been willing to die if they knew the resurrection story was a lie and a hoax.

Since they genuinely believed in the resurrection, the only question is whether they were mentally ill or hallucinating. We can reasonably rule out that they knew they were lying about the resurrection.
 
gfart77 said:
I believe Jesus of Nazareth was a liar and a con man!
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That's your choice.

If Jesus duped the 12 apostles, that doesn't disprove anything I wrote. If they genuinely believed Jesus, and genuinely believed he was resurrected, then they went to their deaths believing they knew the truth -- even if Jesus duped them. They wouldn't have died for something they actually knew was a hoax.
 
Cypress said:
That's your choice.
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As it is yours in your belief that David Koresh was Jesus resurrected.

Cypress said:
If Jesus duped the 12 apostles, that doesn't disprove anything I wrote.
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So what was it about David Koresh's message that resonated most with you when you joined the Branch Davidians?

Cypress said:
If they genuinely believed Jesus, and genuinely believed he was resurrected, then they went to their deaths believing they knew the truth -- even if Jesus duped them. They wouldn't have died for something they actually knew was a hoax.
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Your point is so stupid it beggars imagination how you think it's valid. People die for wrong beliefs all the time, dude. Just because someone dies for something does not make that something true. IT only means they believed it to be. Which doesn't mean it is necessarily true.

An functional educated adult would understand a simple point like this.
 
gmark77 said:
You have stated it before: you believe that because they allowed themselves to die for a belief that the belief must ipso facto be worthy of at least consideration and belief.
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Never said that.
I said their martyrdom is powerful evidence they did not lie about Jesus' resurrection. People don't die for something they know is a hoax.

That is a psychological claim. Not a truth claim.

The only question is whether they were hallucinating or experiencing mental illness.
 
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