Who gets into heaven

[NiftyNiblick]

From the origin point onward, the universe was lawfully organized, intelligible, finely tuned, mathematically rational.

True enough, but from a humanity perspective, also cruel,
rife with suffering and misery throughout all the conscious life forms.
Not for everybody and everything at once, of course, but always for somebody.

That's why I'm more content to think of it as a random manifestation rather than an intelligent design.
I'm never going to know for sure, of course, so for now, I'll just go with that.

 

[Cypress]

True enough, but from a humanity perspective, also cruel,
rife with suffering and misery throughout all the conscious life forms.
Not for everybody and everything at once, of course, but always for somebody.

That's why I'm more content to think of it as a random manifestation rather than an intelligent design.
I'm never going to know for sure, of course, so for now, I'll just go with that.

I cannot categorically rule out that nothing is real but matter and energy.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

True enough, but from a humanity perspective, also cruel,
rife with suffering and misery throughout all the conscious life forms.
Not for everybody and everything at once, of course, but always for somebody.

That's why I'm more content to think of it as a random manifestation rather than an intelligent design.
I'm never going to know for sure, of course, so for now, I'll just go with that.

First Graders often think their parents are cruel for sending them to school. What they don't realize is that their parents are trying to take care of them and prepare them for life after school. Likewise, for those who believe in an afterlife, our mortal lives are simply a training ground. This belief is shared by all major global religions.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

First Graders often think their parents are cruel for sending them to school. What they don't realize is that their parents are trying to take care of them and prepare them for life after school. Likewise, for those who believe in an afterlife, our mortal lives are simply a training ground. This belief is shared by all major global religions.

By the same token, where is the logic of an omnipotent deity creating a need for a training ground?
It obviously makes sense to some...but not to me.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I cannot categorically rule out that nothing is real but matter and energy.

Likewise, I obviously can't rule out non-material reality.
I can deny having the ability to imagine how it would come into being and how it would work.
Many people just sense it. I don't seem to.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

By the same token, where is the logic of an omnipotent deity creating a need for a training ground?
It obviously makes sense to some...but not to me.

Which is why it's easier to believe we're in a video game being played by pimple-faced teenagers.

 

[Cypress]

Likewise, I obviously can't rule out non-material reality.
I can deny having the ability to imagine how it would come into being and how it would work.
Many people just sense it. I don't seem to.

I don't have any problem understanding there is an immaterial reality: the mathmatical laws of physics, geometric axioms, the laws of logic, true love, the concept of infinity, imaginary numbers, the square root of 2.

Obviously, my souped-up chimpanzee brain is not capable of seeing the whole picture when it comes to an immaterial and transcendent reality

 

[Hume]

Obviously, my souped-up chimpanzee brain is not capable of seeing the whole picture when it comes to an immaterial and transcendent reality

Then why talk about it?

 

[Cypress]

By the same token, where is the logic of an omnipotent deity creating a need for a training ground?
It obviously makes sense to some...but not to me.

Without adversity, suffering, misfortune we would never cultivate a sense of mercy, charity, empathy, resilience, strength, self-sacrifice. We wouldn't be fully human if we didn't have those virtues.

 

[Hume]

Without adversity, suffering, misfortune we would never cultivate a sense of mercy, charity, empathy, resilience, strength, self-sacrifice. We wouldn't be fully human if we didn't have those virtues.

Why not just have no suffering? Why is god impotent, then?

 

[Cypress]

Then why talk about it?

Socrates first principle is to map the boundaries of what you don't know. That is an antidote to hubris and ignorance.

 

[Hume]

Socrates first principle is to map the boundaries of what you don't know. That is an antidote to hubris and ignorance.

How do you know that something exists if by definition you do not know it?

 

[Cypress]

Why not just have no suffering? Why is god impotent, then?

It we lived in an ideal and perfect world, we would not be human.

 

[Hume]

It we lived in an ideal and perfect world, we would not be human.

I see. You admit god is not perfect.

 

[Cypress]

How do you know that something exists if by definition you do not know it?

We had good reason to believe atoms and exoplanets existed long before we could prove it

 

[Hume]

We had good reason to believe atoms and exoplanets existed long before we could prove it

When will people prove god created the universe? Over 2000 years and counting.

 

[Cypress]

I see. You admit god is not perfect.

The belief is that God could take our free will away and force us to live perfect and ideal lives. But most people would say being free is better than being a robot dangling from puppet strings

 

[Hume]

But most people would say being free is better than being a robot dangling from puppet strings

I doubt anyone but you believes that.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Without adversity, suffering, misfortune we would never cultivate a sense of mercy, charity, empathy, resilience, strength, self-sacrifice. We wouldn't be fully human if we didn't have those virtues.

"Adversity breeds character" is an old saying. One complaint about our youth is that life is too easy for them thus they become 25-year-old couch potatoes.

Or, as in Perry's case, 40-year-old retarded couch potatoes. Sad.

 

[Cypress]

When will people prove god created the universe? Over 2000 years and counting.

You can't prove anything, with the possible exception of mathmatical truths.

You can't prove this discussion isn't just your delusion.

You have to base knowledge on logic and reason when empiricism is insufficient.