Margot
Verified User
That's completely your choice! So you aren't interest in Salvation of the Soul and eternal life either, I assume?
If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book
- Thread starter domer76
- Start date
Never was, never will be.
ZenMode
Well-known member
So, until you really, really, really believe?
What about the most believing Muslims? They have the same feeling about Muhammad that Christians have about the holy Spirit?
It seems to me that the question being dealt with here is a variation of, "What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?"...with a particular emphasis on, "Is there a GOD (or are there gods) involved?"
What are you actually saying about the question, ZenMode?
Are you saying that you know the answer to that second part?
^ Logically incoherent because that's not possible, given human nature.
Also, atheist nations have an extremely poor record of governance and civil rights.
There are Buddhists, Jews, and Pagan religionists on this board.
If you were made to live in a Muslim or Hindu society, or made to live in any State Atheist nation that has ever existed, you would probably be pleading to come back to a western nation whose ethos is cultural Christianity. Even when we reject Christianity as westerners, our ethos, our perspective, our zeitgeist is bound up with the Christian legacy in ways we often don't recognize.
People want purpose, meaning, and community, regardless if you or I agree with their religion. What do you propose to replace religion with? State atheism has failed everywhere it's been tried.
So you seem to be agreeing that even going on a crusade to eliminate Christianity will not rid the world of the perfectly natural human affinity for religious belief and practice in some form.
ZenMode
Well-known member
The claim was this:
"If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book"
Which is true when you're talking about a man-god as Christians claim exists. If the god of the Bible were real, there would be evidence to support its existence and the Bible wouldn't be necessary.
That's why I use to example of wiping all books about the Christian god off the face of the earth and wiping all memories of Christianity from peoples' minds. If that happened, Christianity would cease to exist there is no evidence for the Christian god to revive Christianity.
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gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Is that how you're attributing certain occurrences?
ZenMode
Well-known member
The association of events with a deity is all imaginary, as are the deities.
The electrical and gravitational fields in a cosmic nebula cause the gas and dust particles to behave very predictably in accordance with universal mathematical relationships.
Even statistical mechanics is able to make accurate predictions even if we don't know the location and momentum of every single atomic particle.
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Your scenario is wholly dependent upon the assumption that no Christian God exists who could replace what was wiped away.
So long as the Christian God exists, all understanding would still exist within him (and could still be reinstituted due to his existence).
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Okay, so that is how you are attributing certain occurrences.
Did you know that you are making use of faith-based attributions in order to criticize Christians for making use of faith-based attributions?
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Thank you for that response, Zen. I agree with part of what you said here and elsewhere. As for the Bible, my take (which I have posted before), is:
My guess about the Bible, for what it is worth, is that it is a very self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...a relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious people who had many enemies in the areas where they lived. Their enemies worshiped barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty gods. And to protect themselves from those gods, they invented an especially barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty god...and worshiped it. The story seems to be a necessary mythology. The mythology served a needed purpose at that time and I can easily understand why the ancient Hebrews felt about it the way they did. The fact that modern theists feel the way they do about it...is disappointing and disheartening.
That said, however, I still am not sure of your position re the possibilities of a GOD or of gods existing...and some of the things you have said indicates to me that you MAY be saying that no gods exist or can exist.
That is what I am asking you to address. If your position is that you do not want to offer your position for consideration, I will accept that. If, however, you are willing to put your position up for consideration as these other people have done...
...what is your position about whether at least one god exists or not...and what is your position about the possibility of at least one god existing?
ZenMode
Well-known member
Correct and my assumption is based on the fact that there is literally nothing happening today that would lead us to believe that the Christian God exists.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Not certain occurrences, all occurrences. People of all religions will attribute certain events to their deity. They do that because they ALREADY believe in a deity, not because there's any reason to attribute events to a deity.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
A cosmic nebula is a random dust cloud within a random dust cloud within a random dust cloud ... for which no one can predict the behavior of even a single particle. What are you talking about?
Who are you claiming is predicting the behavior of which particles in which cosmic nebulae?
Which accurate predictions are you claiming are being made with the equations you posted?
gfm7175
Mega MAGA
So it's a matter of faith.
There's all sorts of things happening today, ZenMode... just take a look around you.
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gfm7175
Mega MAGA
Yet, you follow this up with discussing certain occurrences (as you did before).
What about the people who didn't believe in a deity until certain events occurred in their lives (or had a particular realization about certain events)? Aren't those people, who didn't already believe in a deity, finding reason to attribute events to a deity?
There are numerous examples of atheists converting to Christianity after philosophical reflection -- famously CS Lewis, and the former 'New Atheist' pundit Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The influential atheist intellectual Jean Paul Satre reportedly converted on his death bed.