If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[Into the Night]

I mean, I said you do X and then you literally did X.

Define X.

I'm not proving or disproving anything. You are.

Inversion fallacy. I'm not trying to prove any religion.

You can't make words disappear!

Inversion fallacy. I'm not trying to make any word disappear.

You can't blame your problems on me or anybody else, Void.

 

[IBDaMann]

Playing dumb...as usual.

Playing dumb..as usual.

 

[IBDaMann]

Not an accurate statement.

It was totally accurate.

Quantum subatomic systems behave as a wave, but resolve to particle-like entities when measured.

Don't you see the egregious omniscience fallacy here? All we know is what we measure. You are claiming that all systems behave differently from what we observe. How do you claim to know anything about what is not observed?

The probability comes in at the level of measurement

Uncertainty is introduced by the measurement.

, and that is just one interpretation. Some interpretations of quantum mechanics are perfectly deterministic.

Give me an example of quantum mechanics that is classical physics.

The evolution of the quantum wave is completely deterministic.

Too funny.

The Copenhagen interpretation states that the wave is a probability distribution that resolves to a particle upon measurement. But alternatively, the Many Worlds interpretation treats the wave function not as a probability distribution, but as a completely deterministic representation of all the states of physical reality.

Nope. None of this is accurate.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'll definitely discuss. I'm curious what it is that you believe that you're hyping up.

Okay, good. Let us see if it happens.

As for "believing"...I just do not do it. There are better words to say what most people say using the words "believe" or "belief" and I do that...say those things without using those words.

So I do not "believe" I am trying to hype up anything. I'm saying that I AM attempting to get people who use the word "atheist" to realize that they are using the same reasons for doing so that religionists use for asserting their religions...BLIND GUESSING about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...with specificity directed at the question, "Are there any gods or not?"

You are making some blind guesses about that question...and then showing a great deal of contempt for religionistsr doing that same thing.

Why? (Discuss.)

 

[ZenMode]

Okay, good. Let us see if it happens.

As for "believing"...I just do not do it. There are better words to say what most people say using the words "believe" or "belief" and I do that...say those things without using those words.

So I do not "believe" I am trying to hype up anything. I'm saying that I AM attempting to get people who use the word "atheist" to realize that they are using the same reasons for doing so that religionists use for asserting their religions...BLIND GUESSING about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...with specificity directed at the question, "Are there any gods or not?"

You are making some blind guesses about that question...and then showing a great deal of contempt for religionistsr doing that same thing.

Why? (Discuss.)

I believe that there is a basis for atheistic beliefs that makes those beliefs not blind guessing...

There are things we know about ancient humans - they were superstitious and confused by much of the world around them, which is why they tended to create explanations in the form of gods. We don't see people creating new gods today. We see very, very, very small numbers of people being convinced of ridiculous things by other humans, but humans generally aren't creating new gods. The last one was probably Joseph Smith/Mormonism. The reason that is the case is because we understand so much more than we used to about the world and the solar system around us. The sun isn't some mysterious glowing ball of fire in the sky. We know what it is, why it disappears at on one horizon and reappears hours later on the other. Education is the antidote for religion, as time continues to show.

There's also the claim of the "powers" of gods, all of which go directly against what we know about science/biology/physics/meteorology. They were believed to cause storms and other natural disasters. They were claimed to bring the dead back to life and, in the specific case of the Christian god, circumvent any number of established laws of physics. Bushes can't burn without specific things happening to the bush. The surface of water can't support a human who's walking on it. Humans organs don't function after being denied oxygen and blood for hours, much less days. Yet, to be a Christian, you have to believe those claims along with many more "improbable" claims. How would god make it possible for a human to walk on top of water? Is the God able to manipulate the atomic structure of water or the density of the human on the fly? What is the likelihood that such an event could realistically be true? How would a bush burn without the process of pyrolysis happening?

Those reasons are why it's not just blind guessing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and religion doesn't provide anything close to enough evidence for a god.

 

[ZenMode]

Oh? I guess you've never heard of the worship of Ra, or Apollo, or Amaterasu, or any other god associated with the Sun.
I assume you haven't heard of the worship of Set, or Metzli, or Allah, or Chandra, or Selene, or Tsukuyomi, or any other god associated with the Moon.

those are all made up, also.

 

[ZenMode]

Define X.

Inversion fallacy. I'm not trying to prove any religion.

Inversion fallacy. I'm not trying to make any word disappear.

You can't blame your problems on me or anybody else, Void.

X= denying certain words exist. I say you deny certain words exist and then you immediately say there is no such thing as Statistical Mechanics.

I'm limiting my responses to specific topics because you tend to talk in circles without ever actually getting anywhere and it ends up being a huge waster of time.

 

[IBDaMann]

There are things we know about ancient humans

Nope. There are things that you speculate, and the things you speculate differ from the things I speculate.

You really should stop using the word "we" to mean you and your individual beliefs.

- they were superstitious and confused by much of the world around them,

Why do you speculate this? Did you hold a seance?

which is why they tended to create explanations in the form of gods.

... or they created myths just because they like to make stories. Modern day people do it all the time. Everbody likes stories. Your speculations are not truth.

We don't see people creating new gods today.

... says the guy who worships the goddess Climate.

We see very, very, very small numbers of people being convinced of ridiculous things by other humans,

1. Sea level rise
2. COVID hysteria
3. Global Warming
4. Ocean acidification
5. Catastrophic Climate Change
6. "We need to pass the bill to see what's in it"
7. Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, Chupacabra, Yeti, Sasquatch, UFOs, etc.
8. "Epstein's kiddie porn files should be released to the public"
...

The complete list is obviously too long to print.

but humans generally aren't creating new gods.

Humans create new gods all the time. You do it too. Have you said any good prayers to Climate lately?

Those reasons are why it's not just blind guessing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and religion doesn't provide anything close to enough evidence for a god.

... yet you worship Climate.

 

[Into the Night]

I believe that there is a basis for atheistic beliefs that makes those beliefs not blind guessing...

Atheists have religion, Void. You are not an atheist. You are a fundamentalist in multiple religions.

There are things we know about ancient humans

Omniscience fallacy.

- they were superstitious and confused by much of the world around them,

Omniscience fallacy. You don't get to speak for anybody but yourself.

which is why they tended to create explanations in the form of gods. We don't see people creating new gods today.

New religions are being created fairly often. You belong to some of them.

You must be having one of your schizophrenic episodes again. There is only one of you.

There's also the claim of the "powers" of gods, all of which go directly against what we know about science/biology/physics/meteorology.

Depends on the god.

They were believed to cause storms and other natural disasters.

Since God created the Earth, he also created the conditions for storms.
'Natural' disasters is only a phrase used by government and insurance companies, to either justify government handouts or to get out of paying an insurance claim.

They were claimed to bring the dead back to life and,

Why do you think this has not happened?

in the specific case of the Christian god, circumvent any number of established laws of physics.

God does not circumvent any theory of science.

Bushes can't burn without specific things happening to the bush.

They certainly can. I've seen it personally (when I lived in the desert). It's called ball lightning. That one lasted several minutes, stuck to a lone sagebrush bush. It made no noise, and simply faded away. The bush was unharmed.

These often appeared around aircraft during WW2, either following or leading the aircraft. In a few cases, it comes through the aircraft window (without breaking it), and floats down the center of the aircraft before either disappearing or exiting through the rear bulkhead. They can pass through doors and bulkheads with no problem.

Since then, aircraft have little wires on their wingtips and sometimes the tailfin as well to discharge any electrical charge that builds up before such a thing can form. They are not always effective, but it does reduce St Elmo's fire, another type of display seen by pilots, especially at night.

The surface of water can't support a human who's walking on it.

It certainly can. I walk on water fairly regularly. I even drive my car on it. You should go see ice fishing sometime as well.

Humans organs don't function after being denied oxygen and blood for hours, much less days.

They certainly can. The most common example is the skin itself (the largest organ in the human body). Hospitals typically store skin for grafting purposes for 1-4 weeks, or even longer if you freeze it.

Yet, to be a Christian, you have to believe those claims along with many more "improbable" claims.

Math error. Failure to declare boundary. Failure to declare randX.

How would god make it possible for a human to walk on top of water?

It's his creation. He can do what He wants with it.

Is the God able to manipulate the atomic structure of water or the density of the human on the fly?

Water is not an atom.

What is the likelihood that such an event could realistically be true?

Math error. Failure to declare boundary. Failure to declare randX.

How would a bush burn without the process of pyrolysis happening?

I just told you.

Those reasons are why it's not just blind guessing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and religion doesn't provide anything close to enough evidence for a god.

You can't make any evidence just disappear, Void.

 

[Into the Night]

those are all made up, also.

How do you know?

 

[Into the Night]

X= denying certain words exist.

So you are constructing a nonsense statement of random words indirectly. I guess you are just making it all up again, and being rather clumsy at it.

I say you deny certain words exist and then you immediately say there is no such thing as Statistical Mechanics.

There is no such thing as Statistical Mechanics. I never denied that 'mechanics' nor 'statistics' exist as words and have a definite meaning. Your clumsy indirect method of conducting an argument of the Stone fallacy won't work.

I'm limiting my responses to specific topics because you tend to talk in circles without ever actually getting anywhere and it ends up being a huge waster of time.

Inversion fallacy. You can't blame your problems on me or anybody else.

 

[ZenMode]

Atheists have religion, Void. You are not an atheist. You are a fundamentalist in multiple religions.

Omniscience fallacy.

Omniscience fallacy. You don't get to speak for anybody but yourself.

New religions are being created fairly often. You belong to some of them.

You must be having one of your schizophrenic episodes again. There is only one of you.

Depends on the god.

Since God created the Earth, he also created the conditions for storms.
'Natural' disasters is only a phrase used by government and insurance companies, to either justify government handouts or to get out of paying an insurance claim.

Why do you think this has not happened?

God does not circumvent any theory of science.

They certainly can. I've seen it personally (when I lived in the desert). It's called ball lightning. That one lasted several minutes, stuck to a lone sagebrush bush. It made no noise, and simply faded away. The bush was unharmed.

These often appeared around aircraft during WW2, either following or leading the aircraft. In a few cases, it comes through the aircraft window (without breaking it), and floats down the center of the aircraft before either disappearing or exiting through the rear bulkhead. They can pass through doors and bulkheads with no problem.

Since then, aircraft have little wires on their wingtips and sometimes the tailfin as well to discharge any electrical charge that builds up before such a thing can form. They are not always effective, but it does reduce St Elmo's fire, another type of display seen by pilots, especially at night.



It certainly can. I walk on water fairly regularly. I even drive my car on it. You should go see ice fishing sometime as well.

They certainly can. The most common example is the skin itself (the largest organ in the human body). Hospitals typically store skin for grafting purposes for 1-4 weeks, or even longer if you freeze it.


Math error. Failure to declare boundary. Failure to declare randX.

It's his creation. He can do what He wants with it.

Water is not an atom.

Math error. Failure to declare boundary. Failure to declare randX.

I just told you.

You can't make any evidence just disappear, Void.

Thanks for confirming what I have already said in the past, which is that Christians have had decades to construct nonsensical explanations for biblical claims. That's almost entirely what your post was about.

You are rationalizing nonsensical beliefs by trying to explain ridiculous biblical claims from people who buried animals under buildings for good luck.

 

[Into the Night]

Thanks for confirming what I have already said in the past, which is that Christians have had decades to construct nonsensical explanations for biblical claims. That's almost entirely what your post was about.

Denying that ice exists now? Denying that skin grafts exist now? Denying even that God has control over his own creation?

You are rationalizing nonsensical beliefs by trying to explain ridiculous biblical claims from people who buried animals under buildings for good luck.

There is no record of people burying animals for good luck in the Bible, Void.

Why do you try to equate your religions to Christianity?

Now...let's look at your nonsensical beliefs in:

A Holy Climate, where you routinely deny the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
The Holy Mask, where you routinely deny N95 specifications and the two paradoxes of this religion.
The Holy Ozone Hole, where you routinely deny chemistry.
The Church of No God, where you any evidence of anything other than your religions.

 

[ZenMode]

Denying that ice exists now? Denying that skin grafts exist now? Denying even that God has control over his own creation?

More spin and dishonesty.

There is no record of people burying animals for good luck in the Bible, Void.

Lol... First, the Bible isn't the only source for human behavior at the time. Second, human sacrifice, which preceded animal sacrifice, nearly happened in the Bible BECAUSE it was so common.

Why do you try to equate your religions to Christianity?

I don't, liar.

Now...let's look at your nonsensical beliefs in:

A Holy Climate, where you routinely deny the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
The Holy Mask, where you routinely deny N95 specifications and the two paradoxes of this religion.
The Holy Ozone Hole, where you routinely deny chemistry.
The Church of No God, where you any evidence of anything other than your religions.

Incoherent babble. Void.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I believe that there is a basis for atheistic beliefs that makes those beliefs not blind guessing...

There are things we know about ancient humans - they were superstitious and confused by much of the world around them, which is why they tended to create explanations in the form of gods. We don't see people creating new gods today. We see very, very, very small numbers of people being convinced of ridiculous things by other humans, but humans generally aren't creating new gods. The last one was probably Joseph Smith/Mormonism. The reason that is the case is because we understand so much more than we used to about the world and the solar system around us. The sun isn't some mysterious glowing ball of fire in the sky. We know what it is, why it disappears at on one horizon and reappears hours later on the other. Education is the antidote for religion, as time continues to show.

There's also the claim of the "powers" of gods, all of which go directly against what we know about science/biology/physics/meteorology. They were believed to cause storms and other natural disasters. They were claimed to bring the dead back to life and, in the specific case of the Christian god, circumvent any number of established laws of physics. Bushes can't burn without specific things happening to the bush. The surface of water can't support a human who's walking on it. Humans organs don't function after being denied oxygen and blood for hours, much less days. Yet, to be a Christian, you have to believe those claims along with many more "improbable" claims. How would god make it possible for a human to walk on top of water? Is the God able to manipulate the atomic structure of water or the density of the human on the fly? What is the likelihood that such an event could realistically be true? How would a bush burn without the process of pyrolysis happening?

Those reasons are why it's not just blind guessing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and religion doesn't provide anything close to enough evidence for a god.

Thank you for that, Zen.

It is my opinion that anyone who says, "No gods** exist"...is making a blind guess every bit a much as anyone who says, "A GOD exists."

Maybe no gods exist; maybe one GOD exists; maybe many gods exist. Any of those things is possible. We simply do not know.

The REALITY of existence is a very mysterious thing. There may come a time when the science of today will be regarded the way we currently regard "the science" of three thousand years ago.

You, and others, may disagree with my opinion. Fine. We can live with that.



** When I use the words "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST. I acknowledge that such an entity(s) may NOT exist.

 

[Monad Portal]

Define X.

Inversion fallacy. I'm not trying to prove any religion.

Inversion fallacy. I'm not trying to make any word disappear.

You can't blame your problems on me or anybody else, Void.

omg.

you miss the point of algebra.

 

[ZenMode]

Denying that ice exists now?

That wasn't the implication in the Bible and you know it. Stop playing dumb

Denying that skin grafts exist now?

That wasn't the implication in the Bible and you know it, not was it what I was referring to. Stop playing dumb

Denying even that God has control over his own creation?

Right...he's able to defy science. He can magically modify the surface tension of water to a grown man can walk on it right, Mr. Science?

There is no record of people burying animals for good luck in the Bible, Void.

Leviticus 4:35

And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord 's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Genesis 8:20

Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Why do you try to equate your religions to Christianity?

Incoherent babbling

Now...let's look at your nonsensical beliefs in:

A Holy Climate, where you routinely deny the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
The Holy Mask, where you routinely deny N95 specifications and the two paradoxes of this religion.
The Holy Ozone Hole, where you routinely deny chemistry.
The Church of No God, where you any evidence of anything other than your religions.

Incoherent babbling.

 

[Cypress]

Give me an example of quantum mechanics that is classical physics deterministic.

First, use the word I used, don't change what I wrote.

The most famous equation in quantum mechanics is perfectly deterministic in predicting how the quantum wave function evolves through time.

It is generally believed it is the act of measurement that collapses the wave function to a single probability. Though even that is open to debate. The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is entirely deterministic and sees the probability distribution of the wave function to be representing different branches of physical reality.

 

[Monad Portal]

Denying that ice exists now? Denying that skin grafts exist now? Denying even that God has control over his own creation?

There is no record of people burying animals for good luck in the Bible, Void.

Why do you try to equate your religions to Christianity?

Now...let's look at your nonsensical beliefs in:

A Holy Climate, where you routinely deny the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
The Holy Mask, where you routinely deny N95 specifications and the two paradoxes of this religion.
The Holy Ozone Hole, where you routinely deny chemistry.
The Church of No God, where you any evidence of anything other than your religions.

they were bought to sacrifice at the temple.

and they sacrificed them.

Jesus flipping the tables of the money CHANGERS is about this, not usury.

though usury also sucks balls, PAST A POINT.

 

[IBDaMann]

First, use the word I used, don't change what I wrote.

Yes, I used another term, but how is what I wrote different from what you wrote? If you weren't entirely scientifically illiterate, you'd understand that I wrote exactly what you did.

The most famous equation in quantum mechanics is perfectly deterministic in predicting how the quantum wave function evolves through time.

When was this tested?

It is generally believed it is the act of measurement that collapses the wave function to a single probability.

That is not merely believed; it is the definition thereof. Shouldn't you know this? Anyway, you're welcome. Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

Though even that is open to debate.

Too funny! The definition is not up for debate.

The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is entirely deterministic

Science fiction is never deterministic.

and sees the probability distribution of the wave function to be representing different branches of physical reality.

What are those branches?