Archaeology of the New Testament

[Ichabod Stain]

You continue to exhibit the behavior of someone who is in pain and full of self-loathing, Fredo.

There are many ways of ending your pain be they medical, spiritual or physical. Life is an illusion. If you aren't enjoying it, then you are doing it wrong.

A Dream Within a Dream - Edgar Allen Poe

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow —
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.
I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand —
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep — while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?

no argument presented.

your dog is through it's refractory period and ready for another unloading.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

I've never heard of RLDS. Is that pretty mainstream Protestant?

My Pop took me to the OCA (Orthodox Church in America), but when my folks got divorced my mother started taking me to Quaker meetings.

these are the Mormons who lie about their polygamous past, otherwise known as the Mormons.

 

[ZenMode]

Every Mormon? Every Muslim? Every Christian? Is that like saying every atheist over 30 is a deluded moron?

I'm not following. The people who followed Marshal Applewhite to their deaths are the irrational and gullible ones, not all the people who didn't follow him to their deaths.

There's no such thing as miracles, magic or anything else that violates the laws of the Universe.

Or celestial beings fornicating with humans, the human body being brought back to life after 3 days, etc.

I believe whatever force is behind the creation of the Universe did so with a purpose.

Do you also believe that force magically impregnated a teenager ,with celestial semen, in the middle east a few thousand years ago?

It established rules and would be illogical to violate those rules.
I believe we were given brains and expected to use them.
I believe we are given choices and it's up to us to make them.

You are saying contradictory things.

You're free to hate, spit and disclaim everyone and everything. It's a choice and it's your choice to believe as you do.

I don't hate on anyone. I hate on ideas and beliefs.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I've never heard of RLDS. Is that pretty mainstream Protestant?

My Pop took me to the OCA (Orthodox Church in America), but when my folks got divorced my mother started taking me to Quaker meetings.

Yes on mainstream Protestant.

Sunni and Shia Islam split immediately after the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632AD. The majority, who became Sunnis, supported leadership based upon merit and popular support. The minority, Shi'a, believed in bloodlines and wanted Muhammad's cousin and SIL to take over.

Similarly, when the founder of LDS, Joseph Smith, was assassinated by a mob in 1844, there was a differing POV on the line of succession. Like the Sunnis, the majority wanted the church leadership to take over. The minority, which became the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, wanted his eldest son, Joseph Smith III, to take over. The minority remained in the Midwest while the majority followed Brigham Young and his thugs to the "Land of Milk and Honey" in the Great Salt Lake valley.

In recent years, LDS purchased a lot of RLDS properties, especially historical ones. Churchgoers either began attending LDS churches or formed a mainstream Protestant church now called "Community of Christ".

When I was 14 or so and had an intervention by my parents and church elders over my atheist beliefs, it was still RLDS. They were very nice and it was a civil conversation.

Comparison of the Community of Christ and the LDS Church - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Community of Christ—formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS Church)—and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) are two denominations that share a common heritage in the Church of Christ founded by Joseph Smith on April 6, 1830. Since Smith's death in 1844, they have evolved separately in belief and practices. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, and claims more than 17 million members worldwide;[1] Community of Christ is headquartered in Independence, Missouri, and reports a worldwide membership of approximately 250,000.[2]...

...At the World Conference of 2000, by vote of 1,979 to 561, the name of the church was changed from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to Community of Christ. In so doing, the church was attempting to distance itself from comparisons with the LDS Church and in the process transform itself into a unique body among mainstream Christian denominations.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

these are the Mormons who lie about their polygamous past, otherwise known as the Mormons.

...and now we call them MAGAts...at least the ones who aren't incels like you. LOL

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm not following. The people who followed Marshal Applewhite to their deaths are the irrational and gullible ones, not all the people who didn't follow him to their deaths.

Or celestial beings fornicating with humans, the human body being brought back to life after 3 days, etc.

Do you also believe that force magically impregnated a teenager ,with celestial semen, in the middle east a few thousand years ago?

You are saying contradictory things.

I don't hate on anyone. I hate on ideas and beliefs.

No worries. All fanatics only see what they want to see.

I know you are self-deluded, so I'll put this as simply as I can: There is no such thing as magic, supernatural powers nor anything that violates the rules of the natural universe.

If you can prove different, I'd love to see it.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

...and now we call them MAGAts...at least the ones who aren't incels like you. LOL

I'm sure they're in both parties.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Correct, JPP is infamous for attracting the mentally ill and poorly educated

Agreed. Partly because they've been banned from all other forums. LOL

 

[ZenMode]

There is no such thing as magic, supernatural powers nor anything that violates the rules of the natural universe.***

*** Except for the magical being who used its super powers to create everything out of nothing, right?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

*** Except for the magical being who used its super powers to create everything out of nothing, right?

QED on fanatics only seeing what they want to see. Sad.

When I was in college, my main studies were behavioral psychology but I dabbled in what was labeled "Fourth Force" psychology which included telepathy, telekinesis and biofeedback. This was early 70s and both the CIA and KGB had a deep interest in researching Fourth Force psychology. The CIA supported several programs across the land researching the area and I participated in some of these programs.

With the exception of biofeedback, all turned out to be bogus bullshit because.....wait for it....there's no such thing as magic or anything else that violates the laws of the natural universe.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

QED on fanatics only seeing what they want to see. Sad.

When I was in college, my main studies were behavioral psychology but I dabbled in what was labeled "Fourth Force" psychology which included telepathy, telekinesis and biofeedback. This was early 70s and both the CIA and KGB had a deep interest in researching Fourth Force psychology. The CIA supported several programs across the land researching the area and I participated in some of these programs.

With the exception of biofeedback, all turned out to be bogus bullshit because.....wait for it....there's no such thing as magic or anything else that violates the laws of the natural universe.

wrong.

see pat price, Russell targ.

but of course as you say....

you're a deep state liar.

 

[ZenMode]

all turned out to be bogus bullshit because.....wait for it....there's no such thing as magic or anything else that violates the laws of the natural universe.

There's a difference between saying something isn't impossible and actually believing it to be true.

It's not impossible that there could be a pot of gold at the end of any given rainbow. That's a much different statement than dedicating your life to finding a pot of gold at the end of rainbows.

The game you are trying to play is very similar to chasing the pot of gold.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

There's a difference between saying something isn't impossible and actually believing it to be true.

It's not impossible that there could be a pot of gold at the end of any given rainbow. That's a much different statement than dedicating your life to finding a pot of gold at the end of rainbows.

The game you are trying to play is very similar to chasing the pot of gold.

they're attempting to set up the premise that religious assertions should be rationally EVIDENCED,

so they can turn around and destroy all of it.

they're godless communists.

 

[ZenMode]

they're attempting to set up the premise that religious assertions should be rationally EVIDENCED,

so they can turn around and destroy all of it.

they're godless communists.

I think all assertions should be restually evidenced. If an assertion isn't rationality evidence then it's irrationally evidenced.

I don't want to live in a world that is based on irrational reasoning. Do you?

 

[Ichabod Stain]

I think all assertions should be restually evidenced. If an assertion isn't rationality evidence then it's irrationally evidenced.

I don't want to live in a world that is based on irrational reasoning. Do you?

that's why I go with Christianity.

Jesus central teaching, the golden rule, is entirely rational.

I have faith in jesus's rationality.

 

[ZenMode]

that's why I go with Christianity.

Jesus central teaching, the golden rule, is entirely rational.

I have faith in jesus's rationality.

If you call yourself a Christian, and subscribe to Christian beliefs, you believe a 30ish year old man came back from the dead after 3 days.

 

[Into the Night]

Christians liked to put their dead in tombs, which is likely why Jesus was alleged to have been put into a tomb after he was crucified.

So do Romans, Jews, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, etc.

The problem is that the Romansz when they killed someone by nailing them to a "cross", were known to leave them hanging for a long time to allow the body to decay, be picked apart by birds/animals, etc.

Nope. That was more of a habit in China. In Rome, they took the body down.

That's why the story of Jesus resurrection is unlikely to have ever happened.

Attempted proof by synthesis.

 

[Into the Night]

Ok. The Bible says a lot of things, many of which don't make sense or, in this case, go against what is known to be true.

Argument of the Stone fallacy.

Jesus wasn't anything special when he was killed. He wasn't the son of god.

Attempted proof by Stone.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

There's a difference between saying something isn't impossible and actually believing it to be true.

It's not impossible that there could be a pot of gold at the end of any given rainbow. That's a much different statement than dedicating your life to finding a pot of gold at the end of rainbows.

The game you are trying to play is very similar to chasing the pot of gold.

QED on fanatics only seeing what they want to see. Good luck chasing that pot of gold which you claim isn't impossible. I say it is since it's impossible to reach the end of a rainbow.

 

[Into the Night]

Nothing can be proven.

Quite a lot can be proven, Cyborg, but proofs only exist in closed functional systems, such as mathematics or logic.

All the intelligent person can do is decide which way the evidence points to.

In any open functional system, that may be true. Religion is an open functional system. There is one exception: science. Science does not use supporting evidence at all, and a theory of science can be falsified by evidence or by a mathematical or logical proof. Yet, science is an open functional system.

There was no Bible in the first century when the accounts were being written.

Yes there was. The Old Testament writings of the prophets existed at the time of Christ. They foretold the coming of Christ, and of his death and resurrection. That was the 'Bible' of the time.

You had different accounts being written in different communities either by eyewitnesses, or by people who knew and interviewed the eyewitnesses.

Not interviews, Cyborg. They wrote it themselves.

You had at least five different independent accounts of Jesus being taken off the cross and buried. There are no alternative accounts contesting this. The tomb and Joseph of Aramethea are attested in all accounts. Being a member of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Aramethea was a high ranking Jew who could have had some influence with Pontius Pilate and the Roman occupation authority.

Quite right.

Our surviving accounts of Roman crucifixion are fragmentary, and it's difficult to say what would have been 'normal'.

Not that fragmentary. Also, crucifixion was not just a Roman thing. It was practiced by several cultures. In Rome, crucifixion was usually reserved for crimes against the State. Christ, of course, committed no crime, but He was accused of one by claiming He was the Son of God, which the Romans perceived as insurrection, and which the Pharisees perceived as a threat to their power base.

On balance, the manuscript evidence and attestations point to Jesus being taken off the cross by a high ranking Jew who was sympathetic to the Jesus movement, and Jesus being laid out in a rock tomb.

Correct.

Death on the cross is caused primarily by asphyxiation, with blood loss and exposure as secondary factors. Romans would sometimes break the legs of the condemned to hasten the process. In the case of Jesus Christ, his legs were not broken, but a guard did stick a sword in His side after the death. The body was taken down, laid in the tomb, and three days later, He was resurrected and walked out of the tomb.