the ATF has some 'splaining' to do

Taichiliberal said:
You keep making a LOT of claims but offer NOTHING but your opinion, supposition and conjecture in place of FACT to support your claims, Archie.
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Other than actually holding an FFL and knowing a damned sight more than you about the processes involved? Yeah clearly my opinion as an expert in the field is worth less than yours, because fuck me apparently.
Repeating yourself ad nauseum won't magically make your claims come true, Archie boy.
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I could make an entire website of you repeating the same old claims about "the chronology of the posts" as though that's the most relevant thing about these posts, rather than the actual content. The order in which something happens matters very little.
I've provided facts, but you just can't honestly address them.
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Really? What might those 'facts' be? that you want to wait before you condemn the ATF? That you shouldn't throw babies out with bath water (a process no one does anymore, that's what DRAINS are for). Please indicate a single 'fact' that you've posted in the last 2 weeks on this matter.
Also, as I pointed out previously, YOU made a generalized accusation against the ATF as unconstitutional and illegal, and then say it's actions can be distributed among other agencies. So BY YOUR LOGIC ARCHIE, the illegal and unconstitutional actions of the ATF suddenly become acceptable if just divided among other Federal Agencies!
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Uhh no, I said that the only legitimate purpose the ATF might be able to have is that of FFL regulating and oversight, which can and should be handled by the FBI since they already do most of the work involved anyways.

Archie, your inability to recognize the contradictory nature of your blatherings is astounding. But do repeat your bilge in various forms, Archie...or better yet throw in a lie or two about what I write...or mimick what I write like a grade schooler..it's about all you've got. Carry on.
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I'm sorry that you are intellectually incapable of understanding your own wanton logical and ethical inconsistencies.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Are you including our Armed Forces in your description, STY?
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there's a slight difference between military troops on foreign battlefiields and law enforcement agents deliberately violating the laws they are sworn to uphold.
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Let's get the facts straight, STY....the celebrated cases by which gunners and anti-gov't types.....Ruby Ridge and Waco....were incidences were the persons of interest by the federal authorities were in either in violation of the law or major suspects in a crime wanted for questioning. There was no "deliberate" violation of the law, but innocent people did die as a results of the suspects arming themselves and shooting it out with the feds, who could have handled each situation differently in hind sight.

Recently, the American public has been made familiar with the phrase, "collateral damage".....where innocent civilians die as a result of a military operation....operations that TAKE INTO ACCOUNT that civilians will die.

So StY, if you're going to make generalized statements, be prepared to understand what they encompass.

Now, let's keep an eye on how this current debacle will shake out.
 
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Taichiliberal said:
Let's get the facts straight, TCL...
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You're seriously being stupid if you can consider the unlawful actions of the ATF an act of war where collateral damage is acceptable.

the scandal is about the ATF ignoring its lawful mandate (that of preventing strawbuys, capturing strawbuyers, and preventing guns from crossing the border), and infact, encouraging said gun shops to allow the strawbuys and WATCHING the guns cross the border.

so, if you're going to try to parse crosshairs and group military assaults against american citizens alongside rogue agencies breaking their own laws, be prepared to understand what they encompass.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Let's get the facts straight, TCL...
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You're seriously being stupid if you can consider the unlawful actions of the ATF an act of war where collateral damage is acceptable.

All one has to do is READ ALL what I wrote in the post you edited to see that YOU, STY, are either fucking stupid when it comes to comprehending what you read or you LIE about what others write when you can't prove them wrong.

the scandal is about the ATF ignoring its lawful mandate (that of preventing strawbuys, capturing strawbuyers, and preventing guns from crossing the border), and infact, encouraging said gun shops to allow the strawbuys and WATCHING the guns cross the border.

No shit sherlock, THAT was original discussion at hand, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF YOUR GUNNER'S PENCHANT FOR CATEGORIZING EVERYTHING THE ATF DOES AS UNLAWFUL. Bottom line: it was a dumb ass sting operation...and we are seeing which heads will roll. On THAT we are in agreement.

so, if you're going to try to parse crosshairs and group military assaults against american citizens alongside rogue agencies breaking their own laws, be prepared to understand what they encompass.
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Again, you keep bullhorning the same gunner propaganda while IGNORING EXACTLY WHAT I PREVIOUSLY STATED. YOU CANNOT LOGICALLY FAULT WHAT I WROTE, so you just ignore it and keep regurgitating your revised version. Grow the fuck up, STY. The chronology of the posts (i.e., Post #204) will always be your undoing when you try this.

Now, back to waiting for the FACTS in the case to unfurl....I thank you for at least reporting the news sources that are NOT biased.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Again, you keep bullhorning the same gunner propaganda while IGNORING EXACTLY WHAT I PREVIOUSLY STATED. YOU CANNOT LOGICALLY FAULT WHAT I WROTE, so you just ignore it and keep regurgitating your revised version. Grow the fuck up, STY. The chronology of the posts (i.e., Post #204) will always be your undoing when you try this.

Now, back to waiting for the FACTS in the case to unfurl....I thank you for at least reporting the news sources that are NOT biased.
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I'm a little late to all this, but could you be specific?
 
Taichiliberal said:
Let's get the facts straight, STY....the celebrated cases by which gunners and anti-gov't types.....Ruby Ridge and Waco....were incidences were the persons of interest by the federal authorities were in either in violation of the law or major suspects in a crime wanted for questioning. There was no "deliberate" violation of the law, but innocent people did die as a results of the suspects arming themselves and shooting it out with the feds, who could have handled each situation differently in hind sight.

Recently, the American public has been made familiar with the phrase, "collateral damage".....where innocent civilians die as a result of a military operation....operations that TAKE INTO ACCOUNT that civilians will die.

So StY, if you're going to make generalized statements, be prepared to understand what they encompass.

Now, let's keep an eye on how this current debacle will shake out.
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No deliberate violation of law? Conducting sting operations across national boarders without the consent of both nations is certainly illegal and willful.
 
Liberty said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Again, you keep bullhorning the same gunner propaganda while IGNORING EXACTLY WHAT I PREVIOUSLY STATED. YOU CANNOT LOGICALLY FAULT WHAT I WROTE, so you just ignore it and keep regurgitating your revised version. Grow the fuck up, STY. The chronology of the posts (i.e., Post #204) will always be your undoing when you try this.

Now, back to waiting for the FACTS in the case to unfurl....I thank you for at least reporting the news sources that are NOT biased.
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I'm a little late to all this, but could you be specific?
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Click on the little arrow next to the name to go to the previous posts or just scroll back to the number of the post mentioned. In the time it takes you to post some BS response avoiding that, you could have actually read what has previously transpired. When you do that, THEN we can have an attempt at a rational discussion.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Click on the little arrow next to the name to go to the previous posts or just scroll back to the number of the post mentioned. In the time it takes you to post some BS response avoiding that, you could have actually read what has previously transpired. When you do that, THEN we can have an attempt at a rational discussion.
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what a load of crap. you could have simply answered the mans question, but instead of embarrassing yourself some more, you fall back on 'chronology of the posts' shit.
 
and the washington post tries to spin a corrupt agency and illegal operation in to a plea that said agency needs more funding and more people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2011/06/21/AGaGOcmH_story.html

Now, the very critics who have tied the bureau’s hands are expressing outrage over a novel, and we would agree questionable, ATF operation intended to curb gun smuggling into Mexico.

The agents did not try to seize the weapons but instead watched as straw buyers made repeated visits and passed firearms to third parties. (something that they are lawfully required to stop).

The ATF had hoped to move against higher-ups in the chain of command, but the operation went awry when the bureau lost track of 2,500 weapons(why should we give them more power and money if they can't do their friggin job right?), some of which have now been traced to criminal activity south of the border. Two such weapons were found in December at the scene of the murder of a U.S. Border Patrol agent. (and now they are showing up in crime scenes in arizona.

Lawmakers should give the ATF the tools it needs to fight illegal gun trafficking. They should enact stronger penalties for straw purchases and craft a federal gun-smuggling statute; close the gun-show loophole, which allows buyers under certain circumstances to purchase weapons without a background check; resuscitate the ban on assault weapons; and give the ATF the authority to collect data on multiple sales of long guns in border states. The Senate should move quickly to confirm a director for the long-leaderless bureau.

We may never know whether the bureau would have launched the Fast and Furious operation had it had other, more effective tools at its disposal. Those who would clobber the bureau for possible mistakes should look in the mirror and accept some responsibility for its failings.
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the washington post seems to be nothing more than an authoritarian rag as they also railed against the supreme court for invalidating californias violent video games to minors law.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Click on the little arrow next to the name to go to the previous posts or just scroll back to the number of the post mentioned. In the time it takes you to post some BS response avoiding that, you could have actually read what has previously transpired. When you do that, THEN we can have an attempt at a rational discussion.
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what a load of crap. you could have simply answered the mans question, but instead of embarrassing yourself some more, you fall back on 'chronology of the posts' shit.
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Having dealt with Liberty on numerous occasions, I find it more expedient NOT to indulge his stalling and dodging BS. Instead, I put the task to him to actually READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY the material being discussed. That way, it limits his ability to lie about what I wrote or accuse me about lying as to what previously transpired.

If he doesn't want to do some simply reading to catch up, fuck 'em. You don't like it, TFB for you.

P.S. - the reason why the phrase "the chronology of the post" burns your ass is because it let's the reader know EXACTLY what went down, thus disproving any bluffs, dodges, distortions, lies or accusations that you are or your like minded cohorts usually fall back on when you come up against information or criticism of your social/political beliefs that you don't like.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
and the washington post tries to spin a corrupt agency and illegal operation in to a plea that said agency needs more funding and more people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2011/06/21/AGaGOcmH_story.html

the washington post seems to be nothing more than an authoritarian rag as they also railed against the supreme court for invalidating californias violent video games to minors law.
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Jeezus, STY, your near psychotic libertarian blatherings regarding the ATF are getting to the point of absurdity. Once again, you keep REPEATING something that NO ONE denied.....AND YEAH, DURING A STING OPERATION, YOU LET THE PERP GET THEIR HANDS ON THE MERCHANDISE...THAT'S HOW YOU CATCH THEM WITH THE GOODS, GENIUS....but the ATF SCREWED UP ON THIS BIG TIME!
Also, YOU AVOID the true contents of the article in favor of your own silly little editing job....a tactic that propagandist use constantly when they try to substitute their viewpoints as total/complete facts and true representations.

Again and again, no one is denying the ATF screwed up here....the Washington Post puts forth facts AND give a broader picture and (THEIR) suggestions as to how this might have been avoided. Here's the part YOU left out:

The Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General and Congress are investigating, understandably. The probes could help to explain what went wrong and what could or should have been done differently. But Capitol Hill’s intense interest in the ATF should not stop there.

Yeah, we get the libertarian mantra, STY.....NO gov't agencies that prevent little old you from doing whatever the hell you want to do, own any and all types of weapons you want and carry them wherever and whenever you want.

Been there, done that...it's called American History. Check it out sometimes.

So spare us all the usual Libertarian lunkhead bullhorn, and just HONESTLY post what's going on with this story, would ya please?
 
Taichiliberal said:
Jeezus, STY, your near psychotic libertarian blatherings regarding the ATF are getting to the point of absurdity. Once again, you keep REPEATING something that NO ONE denied.....AND YEAH, DURING A STING OPERATION, YOU LET THE PERP GET THEIR HANDS ON THE MERCHANDISE...THAT'S HOW YOU CATCH THEM WITH THE GOODS, GENIUS....but the ATF SCREWED UP ON THIS BIG TIME!
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the ATF is supposed to PREVENT straw purchases. Look up the brady law. it's completely insane authoritarianism to allow the government to break the laws they make simply to make more criminals.


Taichiliberal said:
Also, YOU AVOID the true contents of the article in favor of your own silly little editing job....a tactic that propagandist use constantly when they try to substitute their viewpoints as total/complete facts and true representations.
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something you do quite often.

Taichiliberal said:
Again and again, no one is denying the ATF screwed up here....the Washington Post puts forth facts AND give a broader picture and (THEIR) suggestions as to how this might have been avoided. Here's the part YOU left out:

The Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General and Congress are investigating, understandably. The probes could help to explain what went wrong and what could or should have been done differently. But Capitol Hill’s intense interest in the ATF should not stop there.
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you're a moron if you think for a nanosecond that the government investigating itself is going to find fault with itself. Of course, you being a liberal and all, i'll bet you were all for independent investigations of bush and crew for all their illegal crap, yet government can be fully trusted under a dem admin. hack, you are, nothing more, nothing less.

Taichiliberal said:
Yeah, we get the libertarian mantra, STY.....NO gov't agencies that prevent little old you from doing whatever the hell you want to do, own any and all types of weapons you want and carry them wherever and whenever you want.
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look up 'shall not be infringed', you might get a clearer picture of the founders idea of freedom and liberty.

Taichiliberal said:
So spare us all the usual Libertarian lunkhead bullhorn, and just HONESTLY post what's going on with this story, would ya please?
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I do nothing less.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Having dealt with Liberty on numerous occasions, I find it more expedient NOT to indulge his stalling and dodging BS. Instead, I put the task to him to actually READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY the material being discussed. That way, it limits his ability to lie about what I wrote or accuse me about lying as to what previously transpired.

If he doesn't want to do some simply reading to catch up, fuck 'em. You don't like it, TFB for you.

P.S. - the reason why the phrase "the chronology of the post" burns your ass is because it IS FUCKING GAY.
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Fixed. Its also not an argument, as it offers no rebuttal, no new information, and is based upon the false premise that you previously offered anything resembling a worthwhile argument.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Jeezus, STY, your near psychotic libertarian blatherings regarding the ATF are getting to the point of absurdity. Once again, you keep REPEATING something that NO ONE denied.....AND YEAH, DURING A STING OPERATION, YOU LET THE PERP GET THEIR HANDS ON THE MERCHANDISE...THAT'S HOW YOU CATCH THEM WITH THE GOODS, GENIUS....but the ATF SCREWED UP ON THIS BIG TIME!
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the ATF is supposed to PREVENT straw purchases. Look up the brady law. it's completely insane authoritarianism to allow the government to break the laws they make simply to make more criminals.

Oh, the Brady Law states that the ATF is NOT to run a sting operation? Really, care to post that law? Like I said, the ATF screwed up....but little libertarian bullhorns just keep trying to trump up where they don't need to. Jeez.

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Also, YOU AVOID the true contents of the article in favor of your own silly little editing job....a tactic that propagandist use constantly when they try to substitute their viewpoints as total/complete facts and true representations.
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something you do quite often.

Oh stop lying and STY. I insert different colored text for my responses and I NEVER edit the previous response or statements of the people I am in discussion with. If you can prove otherwise, then do. If not, grow the fuck up.

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Again and again, no one is denying the ATF screwed up here....the Washington Post puts forth facts AND give a broader picture and (THEIR) suggestions as to how this might have been avoided. Here's the part YOU left out:

The Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General and Congress are investigating, understandably. The probes could help to explain what went wrong and what could or should have been done differently. But Capitol Hill’s intense interest in the ATF should not stop there.
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you're a moron if you think for a nanosecond that the government investigating itself is going to find fault with itself. Of course, you being a liberal and all, i'll bet you were all for independent investigations of bush and crew for all their illegal crap, yet government can be fully trusted under a dem admin. hack, you are, nothing more, nothing less.

See folks, the second I PROVE with Evidence from the chronology of the posts that STY LIED by editing out what he didn't like, STY blows his limited stack and deteriorates into the usual libertarian opinion laden, supposition and conjecture mantras....pity STY can't blow enough smoke to hide his folly.

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Yeah, we get the libertarian mantra, STY.....NO gov't agencies that prevent little old you from doing whatever the hell you want to do, own any and all types of weapons you want and carry them wherever and whenever you want.
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look up 'shall not be infringed', you might get a clearer picture of the founders idea of freedom and liberty.

Stop being a libertarian lunkhead by thinking emphasizing only PARTS of a paragraph or response justifies your blathering. I pointed out that HISTORY disproves your bullshit, as we already had a gov't regarding gun laws, and people moved beyond it. Also, stop being a wussy and include what preceeds your 'shall not be infringed'......get your shit together, STY.


Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
So spare us all the usual Libertarian lunkhead bullhorn, and just HONESTLY post what's going on with this story, would ya please?
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I do nothing less.
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The chronology of the posts proves otherwise.
 
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/firearms_report.pdf

and the minority (democrat) blowjob report of their investigation reveals (shockingly........not) that the ATF needs even more tools to prevent illegal trafficking.

Lawmakers should give the ATF the tools it needs to fight illegal gun trafficking. They
should enact stronger penalties for straw purchases and craft a federal gun-smuggling statute;
close the gun-show loophole, which allows buyers under certain circumstances to purchase
weapons without a background check; resuscitate the ban on assault weapons; and give the ATF
the authority to collect data on multiple sales of long guns in border states. The Senate should
move quickly to confirm a director for the long-leaderless bureau.
We may never know whether the bureau would have launched the Fast and Furious
operation had it had other, more effective tools at its disposal. Those who would clobber the
bureau for possible mistakes should look in the mirror and accept some responsibility for its
failings.
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well how about that? all the things that the anti gunners have been wanting for years, all rolled up in to one tidy little P-O-S report.
 
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