Does freemasonry still hold influence in government?

[Lowaicue]

You have shown no evidence of any "corruption", you have made unsubstantiated accusations and told us to ask cops if they were Freemasons. That's silliness. You've given no real evidence of power. Nor have I tried to prove otherwise, I've simply given you my experience. You assign some "evil" purpose to that and try to make it seem like I am trying to "hide" something by simply telling you what I have seen and what I know directly.

I have given you personal evidence which, if necessary, I would be prepared to swear on oath, and I have given you two separate quotations supporting allegations that I have made.
I am not trying to prove anything but to show the likelihood of influence. You have said nothing to counter that. If you wish to call that 'silliness' you have that right, but it must be said that to do so might indicate to many that you are unable to properly defend Freemasonry.
I know many Americans love to join funny clubs and organisations (anything to wear a silly hat) and I know many people treat membership of their particular lodge as a selfless and often charitable pursuit. It does not alter the fact that Freemasons influence governments and judiciaries and that is just plain wrong. It does not alter the fact that many (most?) Freemasons join a lodge for the advantages membership gives them in business and protection and it does not alter the fact that many of those advantages might be construed as unethical if not downright illegal.
But you know that.

 

[Damocles]

I have given you personal evidence which, if necessary, I would be prepared to swear on oath, and I have given you two separate quotations supporting allegations that I have made.
I am not trying to prove anything but to show the likelihood of influence. You have said nothing to counter that. If you wish to call that 'silliness' you have that right, but it must be said that to do so might indicate to many that you are unable to properly defend Freemasonry.
I know many Americans love to join funny clubs and organisations (anything to wear a silly hat) and I know many people treat membership of their particular lodge as a selfless and often charitable pursuit. It does not alter the fact that Freemasons influence governments and judiciaries and that is just plain wrong. It does not alter the fact that many (most?) Freemasons join a lodge for the advantages membership gives them in business and protection and it does not alter the fact that many of those advantages might be construed as unethical if not downright illegal.
But you know that.

So, basically we have two matching personal experiences with no evidence other than those experiences. As I said, that doesn't prove that they don't have political influence, but it goes a long way towards showing that here at least, in the US, there really is no special influence from Freemasonry.

While I was in Britain I did notice that many cops were Freemasons, but I didn't see any special influence there either. I did attend a few meetings, but I can't say that I experienced enough to show that there wasn't any. There very well may be, I just doubt it. In our lodges the brothers who are cops are clear that they will far more likely land on a brother harder, as they expect us to act better than others. I don't know if that is the case everywhere.

I really can only speak of my personal experience. I have seen a picture with a 32nd Degree Freemason standing next to Obama drinking some Guinness. But as I've said, all that is from appendant bodies, not from the Blue Lodge and I have zero experience with those groups, they aren't even under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodges.



What I personally dislike is the assumption that I am trying to "lead the conversation astray" in some odd fashion. I'm not. I really am just telling you what I know.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

You have shown no evidence of any "corruption", you have made unsubstantiated accusations and told us to ask cops if they were Freemasons. That's silliness. You've given no real evidence of power. Nor have I tried to prove otherwise, I've simply given you my experience. You assign some "evil" purpose to that and try to make it seem like I am trying to "hide" something by simply telling you what I have seen and what I know directly.

That must have been why OJ wasn't convicted. He was a Freemason and so was the Judge and the Lawyers.

 

[Schadenfreude]

I am aware of the relationships between the various lodges and I am aware that central tenets of behaviour and belief exist.
Tell me though, would you 'root out' a senior officer? Would you root him out if he was senior and a senior government official? Would you root out a judge who allowed his membership to colour his judgement? If you honestly would in California I would suggest you are in a minority. Can you say, with all the oaths and punishments at your disposal that members of a wealthy elite are no more likely to be corrupt than ordinary members of the public?
Needless to say I have not come new to this subject.
Indeed when assisting my father to legally disown and disinherit my brother, for using his lodge for completely illegal and fraudulent purposes, I visited several solicitors offices. At each I asked the question before introducing myself, 'Are you, or is any partner in your firm, a member of the Freemasons?' Not one solicitor found the question amusing or in anyway insulting save one who sidestepped the issue and saw my heels rapidly disappear from his premises.
One learned gentleman actually suggested that more people should ask the question so the legal profession could be cleansed. This occurred in a small town in the southern half of England.
I would submit that if Freemasonry has as much corruption within its ranks or more than the general population in the UK and HK, that the likelihood of the same occurring in the US is very high.
Further, with the oaths of loyalty and the opportunities for self promotion, it would be almost impossible to suggest that Freemasonry does not influence governments.
I am glad you say that California is 'clean'. But I have to remind you that every mason would answer the same of his lodge and no lodge would seriously entertain complaints about members from ordinary members of the public.

i can only speak for the lodge that i joined and those lodges that i have visited - if i were to discover a corrupt brother, it would be my duty to report him to the master of my or his lodge - regardless of other factors

 

[Damocles]

i can only speak for the lodge that i joined and those lodges that i have visited - if i were to discover a corrupt brother, it would be my duty to report him to the master of my or his lodge - regardless of other factors

This is a truth. And I've seen trials with former "brothers" tossed from the fraternity for some of the activities that have been related as "normal" to Freemasons.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

Freemasonry is a cover for the cult of the Necronomicon.

 

[Lowaicue]

This is a truth. And I've seen trials with former "brothers" tossed from the fraternity for some of the activities that have been related as "normal" to Freemasons.

Here's another quote you might find relevant:

If I was part of a brotherhood with completely innocent intentions, I surely wouldn't care what people are saying about it, because there is nothing evil to be revealed no matter what theories they come up with?
You don't see me defending Christianity on from people who question it. I have no reason to, because my actions are innocent and their opinions are just that, opinions.

So one must ask why the vehement denials and the usual claptrap that 'America' is different. Of all modern nations surely America is known as more accepting of corrupt practices, particularly in business. One only needs to look briefly at the bush croneys.
It MIGHT just be that in this case America IS different. But, honestly, is that likely? Really?

 

[Damocles]

Freemasonry is a cover for the cult of the Necronomicon.

I see. Do you have any brochures?

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

I see. Do you have any brochures?

None that you could read.

 

[Damocles]

Here's another quote you might find relevant:

If I was part of a brotherhood with completely innocent intentions, I surely wouldn't care what people are saying about it, because there is nothing evil to be revealed no matter what theories they come up with?
You don't see me defending Christianity on from people who question it. I have no reason to, because my actions are innocent and their opinions are just that, opinions.

So one must ask why the vehement denials and the usual claptrap that 'America' is different. Of all modern nations surely America is known as more accepting of corrupt practices, particularly in business. One only needs to look briefly at the bush croneys.
It MIGHT just be that in this case America IS different. But, honestly, is that likely? Really?

This is a bunch of hooey, it isn't "vehement" to say, "This is what I have seen and experienced." I've found that remaining silent is taken as confirmation by those who might fence sit. What I say in this thread isn't for the people who are already convinced, it is for the people who are reading the words and seeing who seems to be more reasonable.

The ones that seem to have the most shrill voices are the ones that come up with the weirdest claims of "evil" from Freemasons. I've heard some very weird stuff, your claims are mild (hence yours isn't one of the "shrill").

I've found that usually the ones who create the most distrust are those who put a smidgeon of truth in their claims rather than the ones that make wild unrealistic claims, they almost always have already come to a conclusion and even the most reasonable explanations won't convince them. While I point out the flaws it isn't for them, it's for the reader. I see no reason to stand idly by while a brother is wrongfully traduced, why should I remain silent when it is all of them?

I have no real evidence that America is "different" in this manner, in fact what I saw in Britain pretty much holds up the idea that they are actually quite alike. I simply pointed out that I wasn't there long enough to be 100% certain, but I saw no evidence of political power.

Did you know that politics are one of the topics that are not allowed in a Lodge? It is believed that such a topic would create a division among the brothers, much like proselytizing.

 

[Lowaicue]

This is a bunch of hooey, it isn't "vehement" to say, "This is what I have seen and experienced." I've found that remaining silent is taken as confirmation by those who might fence sit. What I say in this thread isn't for the people who are already convinced, it is for the people who are reading the words and seeing who seems to be more reasonable.

The ones that seem to have the most shrill voices are the ones that come up with the weirdest claims of "evil" from Freemasons. I've heard some very weird stuff, your claims are mild (hence yours isn't one of the "shrill").

I've found that usually the ones who create the most distrust are those who put a smidgeon of truth in their claims rather than the ones that make wild unrealistic claims, they almost always have already come to a conclusion and even the most reasonable explanations won't convince them. While I point out the flaws it isn't for them, it's for the reader. I see no reason to stand idly by while a brother is wrongfully traduced, why should I remain silent when it is all of them?

I have no real evidence that America is "different" in this manner, in fact what I saw in Britain pretty much holds up the idea that they are actually quite alike. I simply pointed out that I wasn't there long enough to be 100% certain, but I saw no evidence of political power.

Did you know that politics are one of the topics that are not allowed in a Lodge? It is believed that such a topic would create a division among the brothers, much like proselytizing.

You are defending Freemasonry because, as a member you have that obligation, both personal and organisational. I might defend my membership of the Manchester United Supporters Club (which I stress I am not). However the weight of public opinion, which by and large is, like mine, influenced by personal contact from without, is that Freemasonry has a tendency to be corrupt but that its junior ranks see it as performing some charitable works and being 'good for business'.
That is not to say it is unique, simply that where opportunities exist, advantage will be taken. And, within Freemasonry opportunities abound. I have never understood why of all parts of the body you expose it should not be the back. The back plays a vital part in freemasonry, it is used for scratching and stabbing, often at the same time.
Let me conclude by saying that non members must be very diligent in their affairs with Freemasonry. They must always ask of courts the allegiances of judge, jury and counsel. Far better not to attempt any civil action than to know that you have been hung out to dry by the 'brotherhood'. Maybe that is why there are so many 'hitmen' available.

 

[Damocles]

You are defending Freemasonry because, as a member you have that obligation, both personal and organisational. I might defend my membership of the Manchester United Supporters Club (which I stress I am not). However the weight of public opinion, which by and large is, like mine, influenced by personal contact from without, is that Freemasonry has a tendency to be corrupt but that its junior ranks see it as performing some charitable works and being 'good for business'.
That is not to say it is unique, simply that where opportunities exist, advantage will be taken. And, within Freemasonry opportunities abound. I have never understood why of all parts of the body you expose it should not be the back. The back plays a vital part in freemasonry, it is used for scratching and stabbing, often at the same time.
Let me conclude by saying that non members must be very diligent in their affairs with Freemasonry. They must always ask of courts the allegiances of judge, jury and counsel. Far better not to attempt any civil action than to know that you have been hung out to dry by the 'brotherhood'. Maybe that is why there are so many 'hitmen' available.

Actually I have no obligation to defend the fraternity. My obligations have nothing in them about defending the Fraternity in any way other than by my own actions.

Basically I am under an obligation to be honest in all dealings, not just those with brothers, I am obligated not to cheat, wrong or defraud, and that is everybody not just brothers. However there is nothing in the obligations about defending Freemasonry.

So far I haven't really defended anything, I have simply given witness to what I have seen. I am not the attorney of Freemasonry, nor am I a very good apologist. If I found such corruption as I have heard claimed I would have left the fraternity long ago, but only people who know me would know that isn't a false claim.

As I said there really is no way to convince you, I'm not even really trying as it's kind of like trying to grab hold of water that isn't frozen. I simply point out what my experiences have been in the Fraternity, some of the rules you may not be aware of, and am willing to answer questions about Freemasonry, except those not-so-secret secrets. Those you'll have to get from another source, but they really aren't that huge of a thing. They really are simple ways of being able to know if somebody is really a brother or not, and that really is the whole of the secrets I have. Anyway, I offer up my personal experience and knowledge of the fraternity as a Past Master of a Lodge.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Actually I have no obligation to defend the fraternity. My obligations have nothing in them about defending the Fraternity in any way other than by my own actions.

Basically I am under an obligation to be honest in all dealings, not just those with brothers, I am obligated not to cheat, wrong or defraud, and that is everybody not just brothers. However there is nothing in the obligations about defending Freemasonry.

So far I haven't really defended anything, I have simply given witness to what I have seen. I am not the attorney of Freemasonry, nor am I a very good apologist. If I found such corruption as I have heard claimed I would have left the fraternity long ago, but only people who know me would know that isn't a false claim.

As I said there really is no way to convince you, I'm not even really trying as it's kind of like trying to grab hold of water that isn't frozen. I simply point out what my experiences have been in the Fraternity, some of the rules you may not be aware of, and am willing to answer questions about Freemasonry, except those not-so-secret secrets. Those you'll have to get from another source, but they really aren't that huge of a thing. They really are simple ways of being able to know if somebody is really a brother or not, and that really is the whole of the secrets I have. Anyway, I offer up my personal experience and knowledge of the fraternity as a Past Master of a Lodge.

damocles

you not 100% correct about no politics within the lodges

you are correct about not taking sides regarding candidates

however, free masons have a tradition of supporting schools and stand behind bond issues to support said schools

there is another organization comprised of master masons called the shrine. one of the charities that the shriners support is the childrens hospitals where children of all races and creeds are treated without charge

damocles and i can only look at the works supported by master masons and listen to what the brethren say

from time to time, there are those that accuse us of various negative things or conspiracies - and to those that do i say look to your family to make sure that your slate is as clean - as i said before, when necessary, we clean our house of those that would bring shame upon us

in conclusion, if you hard facts, the bring them forth

if instead all you have is hearsay, then i say return with proof - good morrow to you

 

[Lowaicue]

damocles

you not 100% correct about no politics within the lodges

you are correct about not taking sides regarding candidates

however, free masons have a tradition of supporting schools and stand behind bond issues to support said schools

there is another organization comprised of master masons called the shrine. one of the charities that the shriners support is the childrens hospitals where children of all races and creeds are treated without charge

damocles and i can only look at the works supported by master masons and listen to what the brethren say

from time to time, there are those that accuse us of various negative things or conspiracies - and to those that do i say look to your family to make sure that your slate is as clean - as i said before, when necessary, we clean our house of those that would bring shame upon us

in conclusion, if you hard facts, the bring them forth

if instead all you have is hearsay, then i say return with proof - good morrow to you

And can you disprove the allegations? I have given you facts, you are under no obligation to believe tham. No proof is possible in a medium such as this. I am the witness. Perhaps if, like people here seem to prefer, I had put my words into the mouth of someone of whom you had never heard and cut and pasted it from a Wikipedia page written by myself you might believe it.
I am the witness. I met the man who, with masons assistance, walked free, although he went a little too far some years later and was banged up.
I am the witness, it was my own father who told me of his own experiences inside the brotherhood.
I am the witness, having received similar experiences from a WM and a lodge member in the UK Midlands.
I am the witness, having watched my own brother lie, cheat and steal with the help of crooked lawyers and police friends and defended by his lodge.
I am the witness for all I have said.
So, as a good man and true you refuse to believe me while you defend an organisation known world wide for its unethical behaviour and undue influence that has included all the above ... and still does.

Good day to you sir.

 

[Airstrip One]

How can someone jump onto one of the most popular bandwagon conspiracy theories and be taken seriously?