Why the Occupy Wall Street people will lose.

Lowaicue

英語在香港
I, for one, am extremely encouraged by the mass movement that these people have started. BUT they will lose.

Why will they lose?

Because no one has said what they need to achieve to WIN!
Because many of their spokespeople are using the inflammatory language that fox and the rest of the establishment loves to pin on the left.

Michael Moore has just been interviewed and I have a lot of time for the guy, but what was his message?

His message was that capitalism does not work.

Well he's wrong. SOME forms of capitalism, SOME parts of capitalism definitely DO work. We accept an unbalanced society, we always have. Now though it has become so unbalanced that we have reached the tipping point. To use inflammatory, political language is playing into the hands of the very people they (we) are against.

So it's tax law, trading law, unneccessarily high (obscene) profits, dubious accounting, fraud and cheating we need to fight, not 'capitalism'. Capitalism needs to be cleaned up and made to benefit the majority.

Keep the movement on track.
 
The reasons for "Occupy" are evident to us of the Movement. There are many messages to Occupy. Among them equal rights for the poor. the end to Bush's wars.The need for jobs.And hundreds more reasons. Besides you only loose if you quit. I dont think Occupy is going to quit soon.
 
They are going to lose because of the Golden Rule; He who has the gold makes the rules and those pussies are shitting their pants right now.

Shortly their jackbooted thugs will crank the pressure up a bit at a time, the neo-cons will brainwash the teabag idiots against them, and they will go home,
but they will have been heard.
 
I, for one, am extremely encouraged by the mass movement that these people have started. BUT they will lose.

Why will they lose?

Because no one has said what they need to achieve to WIN!
Because many of their spokespeople are using the inflammatory language that fox and the rest of the establishment loves to pin on the left.

Michael Moore has just been interviewed and I have a lot of time for the guy, but what was his message?

His message was that capitalism does not work.

Well he's wrong. SOME forms of capitalism, SOME parts of capitalism definitely DO work. We accept an unbalanced society, we always have. Now though it has become so unbalanced that we have reached the tipping point. To use inflammatory, political language is playing into the hands of the very people they (we) are against.

So it's tax law, trading law, unneccessarily high (obscene) profits, dubious accounting, fraud and cheating we need to fight, not 'capitalism'. Capitalism needs to be cleaned up and made to benefit the majority.

Keep the movement on track.

The way I see it is capitalism incorporates the 'rule' prices of items should be based on "what the market will bear". When the distribution of money is skewed, as it is now with certain people obtaining obscene amounts, the prices of items are based on the buyer's financial worth and not on their actual value. That is a major cause of class warfare. It's not simply the fact some people have more money. It is because the price of every day goods is no longer based on their true value, the effort involved in producing them. "Poor" individuals are prohibited from purchasing items not due to their inability to reimburse the seller for their efforts (labor) but due the fact others are capable of paying more, more than the true value.

You mention Moore's message regarding capitalism is wrong but continue to write that unnecessarily high (obscene) profits are wrong. The problem is unnecessarily high (obscene) profits is the cornerstone of capitalism.

Over 10 years ago Brooksley Born tried to warn us about the impending financial collapse but Allen Greenspan and capitalism prevailed. Once enough people lost money investing in bogus 'financial instruments' others would not invest and the situation would correct itself, so believed Greenspan. Such beliefs are a key component of capitalism.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/?autoplay

The erroneous belief that capitalism equals freedom is so ingrained in some parts of the western world that to be against capitalism is to be against freedom. That is one of the major stumbling blocks to decent medical care in the US.
 
I, for one, am extremely encouraged by the mass movement that these people have started. BUT they will lose.

Why will they lose?

Because no one has said what they need to achieve to WIN!
Because many of their spokespeople are using the inflammatory language that fox and the rest of the establishment loves to pin on the left.

Michael Moore has just been interviewed and I have a lot of time for the guy, but what was his message?

His message was that capitalism does not work.

Well he's wrong. SOME forms of capitalism, SOME parts of capitalism definitely DO work. We accept an unbalanced society, we always have. Now though it has become so unbalanced that we have reached the tipping point. To use inflammatory, political language is playing into the hands of the very people they (we) are against.

So it's tax law, trading law, unneccessarily high (obscene) profits, dubious accounting, fraud and cheating we need to fight, not 'capitalism'. Capitalism needs to be cleaned up and made to benefit the majority.

Keep the movement on track.

Your post, at lease shows you're not quite as insane as Apple, Aoxo, WBear, or ReturnofDunce......but still 3 cents short of a nickel....or is it 9 crackers short of a stripe ?
 
Your post, at lease shows you're not quite as insane as Apple, Aoxo, WBear, or ReturnofDunce......but still 3 cents short of a nickel....or is it 9 crackers short of a stripe ?

If I knew what a nickel was I might be pleased/happy/sad/offended? And what on earth do dry biscuits have to do with one of my business shirts?
I am sure we might converse were you to learn English.
 
The way I see it is capitalism incorporates the 'rule' prices of items should be based on "what the market will bear". When the distribution of money is skewed, as it is now with certain people obtaining obscene amounts, the prices of items are based on the buyer's financial worth and not on their actual value. That is a major cause of class warfare. It's not simply the fact some people have more money. It is because the price of every day goods is no longer based on their true value, the effort involved in producing them. "Poor" individuals are prohibited from purchasing items not due to their inability to reimburse the seller for their efforts (labor) but due the fact others are capable of paying more, more than the true value.

You mention Moore's message regarding capitalism is wrong but continue to write that unnecessarily high (obscene) profits are wrong. The problem is unnecessarily high (obscene) profits is the cornerstone of capitalism.

Over 10 years ago Brooksley Born tried to warn us about the impending financial collapse but Allen Greenspan and capitalism prevailed. Once enough people lost money investing in bogus 'financial instruments' others would not invest and the situation would correct itself, so believed Greenspan. Such beliefs are a key component of capitalism.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/?autoplay

The erroneous belief that capitalism equals freedom is so ingrained in some parts of the western world that to be against capitalism is to be against freedom. That is one of the major stumbling blocks to decent medical care in the US.

I don't believe that capitalism and market forces are necessarily synonymous. Why not regulated capitalism with strong fiscal policies. At one point in our history, mid 60s I think, we had something like 90% taxes imposed on the super rich. Some of those people ran away to America but enough remained that our economy did not completely collapse.
We also had retail price maintenance and we still survived. I do not suggest a return to those days, obviously, but there are ways of keeping investment coming in and profits growing in a more egalitarian society.
Although I am, morally and ethically very much a socialist, I am also a realist. The problem today is in wealth differential, croneyism and an uneven playing field.
Gates and Buffet are mega rich but are using their money, or some of it, for the benefit of society. The Kochs and others are mega rich and, whilst giving substantial sums to charity, have a personal profit motive and should be ghaddaffied..
We all need a taxation system that does not allow abuses by these people, a taxation system that still allows profit to be made and dividends to be paid, but one in which the wealth gap is substantially reduced. Maybe from 'f******* obscene' to 'that's not so bad'.
I'd like to see, for instance, a ceiling of say 750 million US dollars for any one family. That is plenty to live on and leave your kids pretty well off!
That means that Carlos Slim Helu of Mexico would give back 74billion to Mexico, Bernard Arnault of France would pay 41 billion to the French, Larry Ellison, 39 billion to you guys, Laksmi Mittal 31 billion to India, etc. etc. Something like 4.5 TRILLION dollars
would be returned to the societies that gave it in the first place. Our man, Li Ka Shing, would have to give his 26 billion to the 7 million people of HK which would mean an awful lot of people being taken out of poverty.
OK I would not really be possible but that is where the problem lies, not in the basic principles of capitalism.
 
If I knew what a nickel was I might be pleased/happy/sad/offended? And what on earth do dry biscuits have to do with one of my business shirts?
I am sure we might converse were you to learn English.

Don't be too hard on Bravo. I believe he's what's considered a "gifted" child.
 
Don't be too hard on Bravo. I believe he's what's considered a "gifted" child.

Gifted = Genius

I think you may mean "special"... but don't let me put words in your mouth. You truly may have had the intention of calling bravo a genius. Personally I think it was a bit of a Freudian slip.
 
Apple: The way I see it is capitalism incorporates the 'rule' prices of items should be based on "what the market will bear". When the distribution of money is skewed, as it is now with certain people obtaining obscene amounts, the prices of items are based on the buyer's financial worth and not on their actual value. That is a major cause of class warfare. It's not simply the fact some people have more money. It is because the price of every day goods is no longer based on their true value, the effort involved in producing them. "Poor" individuals are prohibited from purchasing items not due to their inability to reimburse the seller for their efforts (labor) but due the fact others are capable of paying more, more than the true value.

Okay, here's the problem with your argument... In a free capitalist society like we have, if you think the prices being charged are too high, and the seller is making "obscene" profits, much greater than the actual "value" of the product, then you and Micheal Moore can pool your resources, maybe get a few investors like George Soros, and you can do this thing that is called "compete" with the "obscene profit" vendor. You can essentially force him to lower his prices or go out of business. Obviously, people would much rather buy from you at a lower price, than pay more for the same product or service offered by the guy making "obscene" profit. This is how capitalism works everyday.
 
Break up and apart big banks, so if some fool or thief fails the hole hamptons doesn't have to be bailed out again.

Exactly... put Glass Steagall back in place. That above all should be the initial rallying point of the OWS crowd. Because it is the absence of GS that is allowing the bulk of the nonsense on WS to occur.
 
Heard today that after the top one percent the next 60 percent has had good income ains since 1979. Shoots to shit mott's whining
 
Gifted = Genius

I think you may mean "special"... but don't let me put words in your mouth. You truly may have had the intention of calling bravo a genius. Personally I think it was a bit of a Freudian slip.

I assure you it wasn't a Freudian slip. I've heard the term interchanged with "special".
 
Okay, here's the problem with your argument... In a free capitalist society like we have, if you think the prices being charged are too high, and the seller is making "obscene" profits, much greater than the actual "value" of the product, then you and Micheal Moore can pool your resources, maybe get a few investors like George Soros, and you can do this thing that is called "compete" with the "obscene profit" vendor. You can essentially force him to lower his prices or go out of business. Obviously, people would much rather buy from you at a lower price, than pay more for the same product or service offered by the guy making "obscene" profit. This is how capitalism works everyday.

The point is in a technological society the average person can not make what they require so they depend on others. Take food, for instance. The price of food has risen sharply. Why? Has the cost greatly risen to produce it? Oil goes down in price. Did the price of gas drop accordingly?

People ask what the "Occupiers" are complaining about. The fact Wall Street is making loads of money is secondary to the fact the Occupiers are losing money, ie: paying more for products while earning the same or less.

Society has become interconnected with a few corporations owning most things. Society is held hostage.

Just as there are laws that in the event of a strike essential services must continue and the population can not be held "hostage" there needs to be something in place prohibiting companies from holding the population hostage. That, in my opinion, is what the Occupiers are complaining about.
 
The point is in a technological society the average person can not make what they require so they depend on others.

Correct, and those "others" are capitalists. They produce a product or service for others and make a profit. In a free market system, any number of people can compete for market share, and the consumer can have options to decide between quality and price, which best suits their needs. Creative or innovative companies may or may not succeed, there is always a risk taken.

Take food, for instance. The price of food has risen sharply. Why? Has the cost greatly risen to produce it? Oil goes down in price. Did the price of gas drop accordingly?

In the case of food, transportation costs are through the roof. When Obama became president, gas was below $2 a gallon. We've now absorbed the realization of the massive increase in fuel prices. as well as other regulatory burdens Obama's administration has placed on capitalist business. The result is massive inflation. Oil prices don't always reflect the price of gas, you also pay a state and federal gas tax, and most of these have gone up. In addition, the regulatory mandates required of refineries to produce proper formulas, etc... all contributes to the cost of a gallon of gas at the pump. But it's easier for a pea-brain like you to blame the greedy oil company.

People ask what the "Occupiers" are complaining about. The fact Wall Street is making loads of money is secondary to the fact the Occupiers are losing money, ie: paying more for products while earning the same or less.

"Wall Street" is a physical place, it doesn't make money. Companies trade stock on Wall Street, people make profits and experience losses through trading stocks, and generally there are risks involved, much like gambling. In a free market capitalist free enterprise society like we have here in America, if you feel that someone is overcharging and making obscene profits, you can go into a business partnership with others and form a 'corporation' and you can provide the product or service for a lower price, and become rich and famous, and resoundingly popular with the masses. This has actually happened, many stories... Sam Walton, saw that K-Mart and Sears were all in the big cities, overpriced, and not serving customers well... he built an empire on small town America, reasonable prices, good customer service. Colonel Sanders... knew people wanted fast food fried chicken, and every attempt at it sucked, so he developed a way to pressure fry the chicken, and became successful. Best Buys.. Big Lots... Home Depot.. the list goes on and on. These people saw a need and filled it, and they profited from it. That is capitalism.

Much of what drives the cost of things up, is government regulation, taxes and fees. Cost of litigation... Cost of compliance... all the bullshit heaped on capitalist ventures by our beloved government. Every bit of it drives the cost of providing a good or service. Banks... we hear all this hullabaloo about The Banks... but the Banks are the front group for all this massive bloated governmental regulation and requirements! They are the ones expected to comply with the wishy-washy politicians in Washington, and still manage to keep the lights turned on at the end of the day. Like every other capitalist, the Bank is providing a good or service, and they do so to make a profit, but the cost to the consumer for this is largely determined by governmental regulations and mandates, the Bank is simply passing the cost on.

Society has become interconnected with a few corporations owning most things. Society is held hostage.

No... part of society has lost their ever-loving minds, and the democrat party seems to be ready to pick up their banner... not surprising to me.

These people couldn't even organize the basics without involving themselves totally in CAPITALISM! Reading the minutes to their General Assembly meeting online, was hilarious to me, I was so entertained I read for hours... Funniest stuff in the world, to see these hippies pontificate over whether they should buy sleeping bags and support 'the machine' or whether they should make their own from material... but then, shouldn't they weave their own fabric? lol it was a hoot!


Just as there are laws that in the event of a strike essential services must continue and the population can not be held "hostage" there needs to be something in place prohibiting companies from holding the population hostage. That, in my opinion, is what the Occupiers are complaining about.

AGAIN... in a free market capitalist society, you are perfectly free to go out there and provide that good or service at a lower price and be a hero! No one is being held hostage, capitalists do this every day... if there is a need not being met by others, there is an opportunity for a capitalist. Now the ever-growing burdensome regulations and requirements put on capitalists by the government... that's a different thing. We need something in place to prevent that, and maybe roll it back about 60 years. If we can get government the hell out of capitalism and let it work, the potential is unlimited.
 
Much of what drives the cost of things up, is government regulation, taxes and fees. Cost of litigation... Cost of compliance... all the bullshit heaped on capitalist ventures by our beloved government.

Whatever the cost of government regulations the price of products are overpriced as witnessed by corporations sitting on piles of money.

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Correct, and those "others" are capitalists. They produce a product or service for others and make a profit. In a free market system, any number of people can compete for market share, and the consumer can have options to decide between quality and price, which best suits their needs. Creative or innovative companies may or may not succeed, there is always a risk taken.



In the case of food, transportation costs are through the roof. When Obama became president, gas was below $2 a gallon. We've now absorbed the realization of the massive increase in fuel prices. as well as other regulatory burdens Obama's administration has placed on capitalist business. The result is massive inflation. Oil prices don't always reflect the price of gas, you also pay a state and federal gas tax, and most of these have gone up. In addition, the regulatory mandates required of refineries to produce proper formulas, etc... all contributes to the cost of a gallon of gas at the pump. But it's easier for a pea-brain like you to blame the greedy oil company.



"Wall Street" is a physical place, it doesn't make money. Companies trade stock on Wall Street, people make profits and experience losses through trading stocks, and generally there are risks involved, much like gambling. In a free market capitalist free enterprise society like we have here in America, if you feel that someone is overcharging and making obscene profits, you can go into a business partnership with others and form a 'corporation' and you can provide the product or service for a lower price, and become rich and famous, and resoundingly popular with the masses. This has actually happened, many stories... Sam Walton, saw that K-Mart and Sears were all in the big cities, overpriced, and not serving customers well... he built an empire on small town America, reasonable prices, good customer service. Colonel Sanders... knew people wanted fast food fried chicken, and every attempt at it sucked, so he developed a way to pressure fry the chicken, and became successful. Best Buys.. Big Lots... Home Depot.. the list goes on and on. These people saw a need and filled it, and they profited from it. That is capitalism.

Much of what drives the cost of things up, is government regulation, taxes and fees. Cost of litigation... Cost of compliance... all the bullshit heaped on capitalist ventures by our beloved government. Every bit of it drives the cost of providing a good or service. Banks... we hear all this hullabaloo about The Banks... but the Banks are the front group for all this massive bloated governmental regulation and requirements! They are the ones expected to comply with the wishy-washy politicians in Washington, and still manage to keep the lights turned on at the end of the day. Like every other capitalist, the Bank is providing a good or service, and they do so to make a profit, but the cost to the consumer for this is largely determined by governmental regulations and mandates, the Bank is simply passing the cost on.



No... part of society has lost their ever-loving minds, and the democrat party seems to be ready to pick up their banner... not surprising to me.

These people couldn't even organize the basics without involving themselves totally in CAPITALISM! Reading the minutes to their General Assembly meeting online, was hilarious to me, I was so entertained I read for hours... Funniest stuff in the world, to see these hippies pontificate over whether they should buy sleeping bags and support 'the machine' or whether they should make their own from material... but then, shouldn't they weave their own fabric? lol it was a hoot!




AGAIN... in a free market capitalist society, you are perfectly free to go out there and provide that good or service at a lower price and be a hero! No one is being held hostage, capitalists do this every day... if there is a need not being met by others, there is an opportunity for a capitalist. Now the ever-growing burdensome regulations and requirements put on capitalists by the government... that's a different thing. We need something in place to prevent that, and maybe roll it back about 60 years. If we can get government the hell out of capitalism and let it work, the potential is unlimited.
 
Whatever the cost of government regulations the price of products are overpriced as witnessed by corporations sitting on piles of money.

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AGAIN.... (and we can keep going through this as long as it takes) If you believe that a particular product or service can be provided at a lower cost to the consumer, you are free to go out there and compete for their business, and you will be resoundingly successful. If what you are claiming is true, someone, somewhere, would CAPITALIZE on it, and put the greedy ones out of business. You can't address this because it just makes too much damn sense. If I am taking advantage of people and charging them too much, you are free to go out there and do the same thing for less and put me out of business, that's free market capitalism.

Profits are what make the world go round, there is no purpose or reason for anyone to invest and take risks in capitalist ventures, if they don't stand to realize a profit. People aren't going to take risks and invest in things if they are guaranteed not to make a profit. You are trying to demonize the very thing that makes capitalism work, then wondering why capitalism isn't working. Your butt-inclination is to have government tax and regulate more, but that only drives prices higher. The solution is to get government out of the way, to have them regulate and tax LESS, not MORE. But what about the profits? Like I said, capitalist competition will take care of that, if people are charging too much, someone will take advantage of that and offer the same thing for less, it happens every day in the free market.
 
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