Government run healthcare... a Greek tragedy.

Emperor Lusgelnio said:
I am sure you are fine with sitting around and watching the children of the poor die from lack of medical care, as you sit in your rich house and laugh sadistically. Then, you will come back and demand that these poor provide you with money to protect your house, provide you with money to protect your nation. How fucking ungreatful. The entitlement mentality in this nation is sickening. No, if you're fine with Americans not getting healthcare, I'm fine with your property getting stolen. If you won't protect your fellow Americans from one set of disasters, why do they have any responsibility to protect you from another? You have forfeited all social privileges by being such a shitty fucking human being. And if Canada wants to come in and conquer your house, so be it. I don't give a fuck. You abandon Americans, we abandon you.
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if you're fine with my property being stolen, i'm fine with you dying because you can't afford medical care. If you won't protect all of my rights, why should I give a damn about yours?
 
It's fascinating that the subject of Greece and healthcare is brought up, maybe certain people need to be reminded of the sonnet New Colossus by Emma Lazarus.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset hates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lighting, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
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SmarterThanYou said:
if you're fine with my property being stolen, i'm fine with you dying because you can't afford medical care. If you won't protect all of my rights, why should I give a damn about yours?
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Monkeys that find and don't share food are beaten to death by the others monkeys. Monkeys have a more advanced morality than you do.
 
Superfreak said:
Yes, reform is inevitable. Health care costs are far too high relative to what they should be. Your problem is that you think the solution is for the government to run the system. That does not reform the system. It simply adds more bureaucracy to it. Health care costs will continue to soar unless you address the root causes of the increases.
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The root cause is greed.

Yes, it costs too much. But saying it achieves poor outcomes is ridiculous. We have one of the best health care systems in the world in terms of actual CARE.
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Yes, for certain people. Check out the overall results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Seriously... are you just a parrot or do you ever think for yourself? This is the same type of crap you global warming fear mongers do. You create these insane little straw men for you to beat upon. I have proposed health care reform ideas. I am all for reforming the current system. What you brain dead parrots need to understand is that a government take over of the sector is not the only option. It is simply the option YOU want, because YOU like being under the government boot. YOU want them to control your life so that you don't have to be responsible.
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Oh, please. Whether we look at dozens of countries worldwide or all the great thinkers right here, over generations, what has been shown to be better than government intervention? Any private, for profit enterprise is not going to cover everyone. The Golden Rule of Capitalism is charge what the market will bear. Unless that changes to charge what the individual can bear and no more there will never be any significant change.

The government is not trying to protect your interest. They are trying to gain control over you in yet another aspect of your life. That is what you are fighting for. You are not fighting for actual REFORM.
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Nonsense. Not one country has reverted to the barbaric "pay or suffer" system and every country started out with one. No exception. There is not even one country where a major political figure is advocating such regression. Opponents of government medical have no evidence of a better system. Opponents of government medical have no evidence of any country desiring to revert to a private system. All they can do is scour news bulletins seeking out the rare occurrence of a mishap which makes the news precisely because it is a rare occurrence. Show us one industrialized country with government medical that compares to the 45,000 who die prematurely every year in the US.

Give us something to work with here.
 
Dungheap said:
Our government spends about twice as much as a percentage of GDP than Greece (and more than twice as much per capita) and Greece has universal healthcare. The Greek government covers everyone for half of what the US government pays to not cover everyone. And this was before the severe budget cuts. (I don't have recent data). Think about that.

What is happening in Greece has to do with the fact that it has stupidly slashed its budget, including it's healthcare budget. Think about what Medicare would look like if it's budget were cut by 75%. That's what Greece is dealing with.
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I think you are confusing our costs with what the government spends per capita.

Our total costs are more expensive than Greece, however that accounts for people covered by insurance, what the insurance pays as well as what they pay.

Greece has the benefit of having protection of NATO, which is pretty much the US, and therefore almost no spending on military.

One of the first things we need to do is deal with costs of health care rather than hiding the real costs in government mandates and thus ensuring our eventual Greekism of our economy...
 
Return of Dune said:
Monkeys that find and don't share food are beaten to death by the others monkeys. Monkeys have a more advanced morality than you do.
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quit your fucking crying. try to explain to the class why it is that you find it ok for the other monkeys to lay around getting a suntan, then expect to kill the monkeys that actually went looking for food and didn't share.
 
apple0154 said:
The root cause is greed.
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this is a very simplistic explanation i'd expect from a 3 year old. that is because they haven't been taught how progress is actually made in this world and are isntead taught that the only progress comes from a belief in a higher power, specifically armed intervention from the federal government.
 
apple0154 said:
Nah. As I noted NOT ONE country has reverted to the old medical ways. No exceptions. When the US citizens see the benefits of ObamaCare the topic will be moot. The Repubs will have to find another mission.
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"obamacare" sucks. if we are going to have a successful healthcare overhaul.........his plan is not the way.
 
apple0154 said:
Nah. As I noted NOT ONE country has reverted to the old medical ways. No exceptions. When the US citizens see the benefits of ObamaCare the topic will be moot. The Repubs will have to find another mission.
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you missed your own failure in your theory though. you attribute the failure of medical care and costs to greed and corruption, noticably ignoring that the majority of it comes from congress itself, then proceed to load the brunt of the weight of costs to the people, threatening them with imprisonment for their failure to help cover you. THAT will result in violent revolt.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
this is a very simplistic explanation i'd expect from a 3 year old. that is because they haven't been taught how progress is actually made in this world and are isntead taught that the only progress comes from a belief in a higher power, specifically armed intervention from the federal government.
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The explanation is simple. It is greed. People actually talk about job loss when discussing government medical. Are they insane? Only a sociopath would consider the impact of job loss when it comes to saving people's lives.
 
apple0154 said:
It's a start. It is moving the conversation towards government medical and away from greedy, for-profit care.
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why not simply expand medicare? oh no...obama has to have his own "plan"....we can't do things the easy way because his ego can't comprehend that. obama's plan is horrible. we need to expand medicare and resolve the wasteful spending within medicare.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
you missed your own failure in your theory though. you attribute the failure of medical care and costs to greed and corruption, noticably ignoring that the majority of it comes from congress itself, then proceed to load the brunt of the weight of costs to the people, threatening them with imprisonment for their failure to help cover you. THAT will result in violent revolt.
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Then change the people in Congress. Those who oppose government medical are not going to try and do their best to make it work so don't vote for those folks. Dozens of countries have proven government medical works, the proof being lower cost and longer life span. What else is there?
 
apple0154 said:
The explanation is simple. It is greed. People actually talk about job loss when discussing government medical. Are they insane? Only a sociopath would consider the impact of job loss when it comes to saving people's lives.
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again, it comes down to your simple inability to understand human nature and self preservation. if it were necessary to save the lives of 5 people, would you sacrifice the life of one of your children?
 
Yurt said:
why not simply expand medicare? oh no...obama has to have his own "plan"....we can't do things the easy way because his ego can't comprehend that. obama's plan is horrible. we need to expand medicare and resolve the wasteful spending within medicare.
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Medicare has been here since '65. 45 years. What has been improved? What great ideas have been implemented?

Obama tried to get the Repubs on board. They wanted no part of it. They bitched and bickered until Obama had to pass his own plan.

This is not some untravelled road. There are dozens of countries that have government medical and they've had government medical for half a century! Good God, man. All Congress had to do was take a look at the different plans and come up with one tailored to the US. All those countries have done the logistics, crunched the numbers, laid out plans. Congress had plenty of information from which to draw. They didn't want a plan that covered everyone. It's as simple as that. The opponents wanted a capitalistic plan and anything capitalistic invariably means some will go without and medical care is not an option.
 
apple0154;936006]Medicare has been here since '65. 45 years. What has been improved? What great ideas have been implemented?

Obama tried to get the Repubs on board. They wanted no part of it. They bitched and bickered until Obama had to pass his own plan.
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i don't care about the republicans, this is about obama and HIS plan. his plan does suck. period. he had control of both executive and legislative branches.....no excuse apple. he could have done anything he wanted.




This is not some untravelled road. There are dozens of countries that have government medical and they've had government medical for half a century! Good God, man. All Congress had to do was take a look at the different plans and come up with one tailored to the US. All those countries have done the logistics, crunched the numbers, laid out plans. Congress had plenty of information from which to draw. They didn't want a plan that covered everyone. It's as simple as that. The opponents wanted a capitalistic plan and anything capitalistic invariably means some will go without and medical care is not an option.
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like i said....fix medicare and expand it. we don't need another government run h/c industry.
 
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