Government run healthcare... a Greek tragedy.

apple0154 said:
Hey! You wrote, "he had control of both executive and legislative branches.....no excuse apple. he could have done anything he wanted."

I agree he could have done anything but he was a gentleman and tried to work with the Repubs.
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He won't make that mistake again if he is re-elected.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
The word you keep trying to promote and it doesn't mean what you keep trying to designate it as.
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What does "promote" mean to you? Why would the Founding Fathers desire to "form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty" but when it came to medical care say, "To hell with the people. Let them suffer"? The Founding Fathers "promoted" or worked at establishing those things for the benefit of the people. Why, when it came to health, would one expect the Founding Fathers to ignore that? What is more important than ones health? How can one enjoy any of those things the Founding Fathers desired for the people if the people are ill and suffering? If they had known of a way to increase ones lifespan by 20 or more years how can anyone believe the Founding Fathers would have discounted that, felt it was unimportant?

"We're going to form the best country we can, offer you the best opportunities to enjoy life but when it comes to dealing with illness and premature death we're not going to get involved." Such thinking is beyond bizarre.
 
Providing free Nationalized Healthcare wouldn't be a pimple on the 1% ass. If they did that the 99 would probably leave them alone and cut thier grass on the cheap.
 
apple0154 said:
When you pay $10.00 to see a movie that cost millions to make are you stealing from the Studio Company? When people use public transit are they stealing? When you visit a public park in another State are you stealing from those people? You didn't contribute to the park's costs, did you?
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now we officially know that you have no clue about economics and business practices.
 
apple0154 said:
It's just as fair as people who don't have children are obliged to contribute to education. It's just as fair as those who oppose wars are obliged to contribute to the war budget. Or the physically challenged contributing to Federal Parks that have difficult walking trails.

It the cost of being a member of society. Why should thieves and crooks be compelled to pay taxes towards law enforcement personnel who work directly against their interests?

It's called "life". :)
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Schools are mandated by every state constitution. The military is mandated by the federal constitution. Local parks are mandated by local municipal charters. It's called "a system of laws".
 
apple0154 said:
Overreaching? A government concerned with the welfare of the citizens is overreach?

The tired, worn out idea is the same idea Greenspan operated under, for years, until the financial world almost crashed. The invisible hand of the marketplace, unguided, becomes the insidious hand.
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If "it", whatever "it" is you want is so important, then amend your local charter, state or federal constitution. Don't lie about what the Constitution says.
 
apple0154 said:
The health of the citizens is not unlimited government. Just as that excerpt mentions defence while it does not specifically mention nuclear missiles or radar equipment it mentions general welfare without specifically mentioning medical care. Besides there being nothing worth mentioning in regards to medical care any intrusive procedures invariably resulted in more damage; ie: infections.

The absurdity is believing the Founding Fathers would have preferred people die rather than have access to available medical care.
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You've ignored the Constitution and the Federalist papers stating the Founders intent, and now are using emotional arguments to try and save your case.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You can get help for your paranoia but unfortunately you'll probably have to pay out of pocket as under the current system #1. you're probably not covered and #2 there are to many of us here who will vouch that it's a pre-existing condition.
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Blah blah blah, Mott is an idiot who is going to continue lame ass attacks on me rather than address the issue.

Dude, you're pointing out one example of a small nations corruption as failure on a grand scale? That's just laughable.
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I am point to an EXAMPLE of what happens when you rely on GOVERNMENT run programs. You can pretend that it is 'just' the Greeks that are having fiscal issues. In the real world, the rest of us see the continuing problems in Europe as whole.

You need to go study the actual facts. All the industrialized nations on this planet, not just Greece and not just Europe, have modernized their system to include the three reforms I listed. ALL OF THEM. All of them spend around half of GDP on health care that we do, they cover all their citizens and they all achieve higher health care out comes then the US does. Those are hard cold facts that contradict your emotional and factless rant.
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Higher health care outcomes? Give me a fucking break. That is blatantly absurd.

As for the spending per capita. As I have stated countless times, WE HAVE THE LARGEST GDP ON THE PLANET. We also have one of the largest obesity problems in the world. We also have a very dispersed population. We also have a problems with defensive medicine practices... try asking your family members who are doctors about that. Ask them WHY they do it.

AGAIN MORON... there are many things we can do to lower our health care costs. YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT RUN THE SYSTEM to accomplish changes necessary to lower costs. PERIOD.

The FACT I stated is just that. A FACT that you continue to pretend isn't the case. To you, the ONLY solution is the government. Yet when your precious dem masters had control, they still didn't create a system that would help LOWER COSTS.... they simply tried to gain CONTROL over the health care sector.

You can be a brain dead puppet if you choose. But in the real world, we realize that the government IS the problem, NOT the solution. Before you go off on the typical lefty 'you don't want ANY government'.... that is NOT what I am saying. The government is needed, but it is NOT the savior you believe it to be.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
What's truly laughable is you've pointed out to SF TWO TIMES NOW that it is but one example of a small nation's corruption, but he still refuses to even listen.
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What is truly laughable is that you missed the point entirely. Greece is in trouble because it PROMISED the world to its constituents without the ability to pay for those promises. They kept up the Dung method of borrow borrow borrow until it blew up in their face.
 
Dungheap said:
Our government spends about twice as much as a percentage of GDP than Greece (and more than twice as much per capita) and Greece has universal healthcare. The Greek government covers everyone for half of what the US government pays to not cover everyone. And this was before the severe budget cuts. (I don't have recent data). Think about that.
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Yes, we spend more, we also have a far better system than Greece. shouting 'they pay for everyone' is all good. I understand they promise to pay for everyone... now back to the point... they cannot afford to pay for all they promised. that is why they now have to make cuts. That is what happens when you fall for the 'we will pay for everything' line of bullshit. The government is NOT who pays. One way or another it is the PEOPLE that pay. Your way just puts the government in the middle of it.

What is happening in Greece has to do with the fact that it has stupidly slashed its budget, including it's healthcare budget. Think about what Medicare would look like if it's budget were cut by 75%. That's what Greece is dealing with.
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That is what happens when you use your 'borrow borrow borrow' line of crap. What exactly was the alternative for Greece? Raise taxes? They can't even get their current taxes paid. They couldn't borrow more money. People like you seem to think there is an endless capacity for governments to just keep on borrowing more and more. Sooner or later... SOMEONE has to pay.
 
Bfgrn said:
Yea, let's compare Greece to the United States of America...Greece's economy is same size as Dallas-Fort Worth's

From the article:

Austerity measures imposed to address the financial crisis may paradoxically be making matters worse.
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LMAO.... yet you idiots constantly try to compare the US to individual European countries. As a whole the EU is about the same size as the US as far as GDP and population.

Yet you compare the other European countries to us and proclaim their universal systems could work here.
 
Return of Dune said:
Monkeys that find and don't share food are beaten to death by the others monkeys. Monkeys have a more advanced morality than you do.
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That is the moral code you wish to live by? If someone has something you want because they went out and found it/earned it and they won't share... just kill them???
 
Also... for those bitching about the size of Greece... take a look at California. They are doing exactly what Dung wants... raising taxes and continuing to promise their constituents the world. How is that going for them?
 
Superfreak said:
That is the moral code you wish to live by? If someone has something you want because they went out and found it/earned it and they won't share... just kill them???
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Did I say that? The point is that even in a monkey society sharing is the norm.
 
Superfreak said:
Yes, we spend more, we also have a far better system than Greece. shouting 'they pay for everyone' is all good. I understand they promise to pay for everyone... now back to the point... they cannot afford to pay for all they promised. that is why they now have to make cuts. That is what happens when you fall for the 'we will pay for everything' line of bullshit. The government is NOT who pays. One way or another it is the PEOPLE that pay. Your way just puts the government in the middle of it.
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Maybe you're not understanding me. The US government pays substantially more as a percentage of GDP and per capita on healthcare than the Greek government. Greece has universal healthcare. The US does not.

As a result of the debt crisis, the government has slashed the budget, but that ignores that before the crisis, the Greek government still paid about half per capita and half as a percentage of GDP than we did to cover everyone. Claiming that the problems that Greece has now show that universal healthcare doesn't work is ridiculous. It's cheaper and produces comparable (to avoid a shit throw) health outcomes while covering everyone.


Superfreak said:
That is what happens when you use your 'borrow borrow borrow' line of crap. What exactly was the alternative for Greece? Raise taxes? They can't even get their current taxes paid. They couldn't borrow more money. People like you seem to think there is an endless capacity for governments to just keep on borrowing more and more. Sooner or later... SOMEONE has to pay.
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I know what isn't working . . . austerity. What has happened to the Greek economy and Greek government debt since austerity measures were first introduced? Further contraction, less tax receipts (notwithstanding higher taxes), more debt and more austerity.

What ought to happen is the banks should take a haircut or Greece should just default. It paid a risk premium for a reason.
 
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