Did 'stand your ground' self-defense motivate more hate crimes?

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The father of a man arrested after a shooting spree that left three dead Friday was killed in self-defense, prosecutors said Monday.

“The Tulsa County District Attorney’s office ruled the April 5, 2010, shooting death of Carl England justifiable homicide and declined to file homicide charges against Pernell Demond Jefferson,“ said Susan Witt with the district attorney’s office in a news release Tuesday.

England and Jefferson got into an altercation at the Comanche Park Apartments the day England was killed, police told the Tulsa World following the incident. England’s daughter reportedly called him for help after her boyfriend and Jefferson got into a fight.

Police said the boyfriend hit Jefferson with a baseball bat and Jefferson left to retrieve a gun before England arrived and was shot in the chest.

Jefferson is charged with attempted first-degree burglary and possession of a firearm after a former felony conviction in the case. A jury trail is scheduled for May 7.

Carl England’s son, Jacob “Jake” Carl England, is accused of fatally shooting three people and wounding two others a day after the two-year anniversary of his father’s death. Court records show he has appeared as a witness for the prosecution in Jefferson’s pending case.

Jake England made several references to the two-year anniversary of his father’s death on his Facebook page preceding the shootings, including a post at 3:04 p.m. Thursday that says, “Today is two years that my dad has been gone shot by a fucking nigger"...



http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=704&articleid=20120409_704_0_Thefat340206
 
Superfreak said:
So tell us...

Of the increase, how many were due to homeowners being found 'justified' due to the new law? How many due to cops? How many due to situations like the Zimmerman case?
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How could homeowners have been found "justified" due to the new law? I am assuming you mean homeowners who shot a home intruder.

Under Florida law you would not have been charged for shooting a home intruder without the Stand Your Ground Law anyway.
 
Darla said:
How could homeowners have been found "justified" due to the new law? I am assuming you mean homeowners who shot a home intruder.

Under Florida law you would not have been charged for shooting a home intruder without the Stand Your Ground Law anyway.
Click to expand...
this was not always the case. it depended alot upon what county you were in and what the politics were. the SYG laws were made in part because people who claimed self defense, whether in home shootings or out on the streets, were charged and tried where they then had to prove their innocence.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
this was not always the case. it depended alot upon what county you were in and what the politics were. the SYG laws were made in part because people who claimed self defense, whether in home shootings or out on the streets, were charged and tried where they then had to prove their innocence.
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"Floridians already had the right to defend themselves against home intruders under what is known as the Castle Doctrine, but with "stand your ground," they could also do so in public. The principle of "shoot first, ask questions later" was no longer confined to one's home."

http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/...ing-renews-debate-over-stand-your-ground-laws

is this incorrect information? Can you show me that?
 
Darla said:
"Floridians already had the right to defend themselves against home intruders under what is known as the Castle Doctrine, but with "stand your ground," they could also do so in public. The principle of "shoot first, ask questions later" was no longer confined to one's home."

http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/...ing-renews-debate-over-stand-your-ground-laws

is this incorrect information? Can you show me that?
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it's not a 'shoot first, ask questions later' law. that is a complete misnomer intended to make the law sound crappy. the castle doctrine laws validated self defense in the home and removed the 'duty to retreat' statutes. like i said in the other post, it was prompted by criminal charges forcing the homeowner to prove his/her innocence in self defense shootings. something that our justice system is not to be used for.
the SYG laws added public areas to the castle doctrine laws.
something else that the castle doctrine and stand your ground laws did was immunize someone who used self defense in a shooting from civil lawsuits.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
it's not a 'shoot first, ask questions later' law. that is a complete misnomer intended to make the law sound crappy. the castle doctrine laws validated self defense in the home and removed the 'duty to retreat' statutes. like i said in the other post, it was prompted by criminal charges forcing the homeowner to prove his/her innocence in self defense shootings. something that our justice system is not to be used for.
the SYG laws added public areas to the castle doctrine laws.
something else that the castle doctrine and stand your ground laws did was immunize someone who used self defense in a shooting from civil lawsuits.
Click to expand...

Well, I've read, all over btw, that the castle doctrine already gave homeowners the right to shoot an intruder in Florida, and The Stand Your Ground Law expanded that to include anywhere you happen to be. So if you have instances of homeowners being charged, in Florida, with homicide or manslaughter, for shooting an intruder, under the Castle doctrine but prior to the Stand Your Ground expansion, I'm all ears. Let's see em.
 
And here's from wikipedia:

Duty-to-retreat

"Castle laws" remove the duty of a person legally at home not to use deadly force on an illegal intruder if he can safely retreat instead.

Stand-your-ground

In some states in the United States, one can use deadly force without attempting to retreat in any location. Such laws remove the requirement that your own property is threatened.

So that seems cut and dry to me. I would love to see all of the Flordia residents who were getting charged with manslaughter or murder after shooting someone in their homes, under Florida's original Castle laws. If homeowners not being charged after shooting intruders is responsible in any way for that 300% increase in justifiable homicides under stand your ground laws, then an awful lot of homeowners must have been being charged for shooting home intruders prior to the expansion of those castle laws under Stand your Ground.

So shouldn't be too hard to show evidence of this.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
your first idiocy is surmising that there must have been dozens and dozens of cases for charges in self defense cases. It shouldn't be any, but one is too many. and while I haven't found any in the last decade, stand your ground/self defense rights date back quite a long time and should never have been removed by state legislatures with duty to retreat laws.

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/Self-Defense-Cases.htm
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Oh so you haven't found any in the last decade, but the 300% increase in justifiable homicides under 2005's (that's less than ten years STY) Stand Your Ground is due, largely or partly, to homeowners no longer being charged when they shoot an intruder.

And I'm the idiot?

:) Awesome. Okay well thanks STY, I feel that my job on this thread is done. Have a good night!
 
Darla said:
Oh so you haven't found any in the last decade, but the 300% increase in justifiable homicides under Stand Your Ground is due, largely or partly, to homeowners no longer being charged when they shoot an intruder.

And I'm the idiot?

:) Awesome. Okay well thanks STY, I feel that my job on this thread is done. Have a good night!
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and why am i not surprised that you feel unless it's dozens and dozens, then it's a law not worth having.

let me ask you, if only one person was charged with a crime for lawfully defending themselves, is the syg law still worth it? or not?
 
SmarterThanYou said:
and why am i not surprised that you feel unless it's dozens and dozens, then it's a law not worth having.

let me ask you, if only one person was charged with a crime for lawfully defending themselves, is the syg law still worth it? or not?
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Uh uh uh, excuse you mister. I asked SF a simple question, let's recap:

Superfreak said:
So tell us...

Of the increase, how many were due to homeowners being found 'justified' due to the new law? How many due to cops? How many due to situations like the Zimmerman case?
Click to expand...

Darla said:
How could homeowners have been found "justified" due to the new law? I am assuming you mean homeowners who shot a home intruder.

Under Florida law you would not have been charged for shooting a home intruder without the Stand Your Ground Law anyway.
Click to expand...

STY said:
this was not always the case. it depended alot upon what county you were in and what the politics were. the SYG laws were made in part because people who claimed self defense, whether in home shootings or out on the streets, were charged and tried where they then had to prove their innocence.
Click to expand...

Stuff it STY. You badly stumbled here in your haste to come at me as the woman who doesn't know shit about gun laws. There is NO way, that homeowners no longer being charged "under the stand your ground law" has any bearing on that 300% increase in justifiable homicides, because as you just stated, you can't even find a case in the past ten years. And that is the issue. Just because you stumbled and I was right, don't try and change the subject and the argument now.

It was about whether or not the 300% increase in justifiable homicides is due, mainly or partly, to actual justifiable homicides. And since we now know that homeowners shooting intruders is not affecting that number at all, we can eliminate those from the equation.
 
Darla said:
Stuff it STY. You badly stumbled here in your haste to come at me as the woman who doesn't know shit about gun laws. There is NO way, that homeowners no longer being charged "under the stand your ground law" has any bearing on that 300% increase in justifiable homicides, because as you just stated, you can't even find a case in the past ten years. And that is the issue. Just because you stumbled and I was right, don't try and change the subject and the argument now.
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first off, I couldn't care less whether you're woman or man. I do my best to educate ANYONE on gun laws, so YOU stuff it. this gender discrimination crap from you is almost as bad as poets racism shit. secondly, the 300% increase is most likely a result of homeowners or citizens in public no longer having to second guess 'duty to retreat' laws in defending themselves from robber, rape, or murder, for fear of becoming a victim of the judicial system. this is not a bad thing despite the occasional person that uses it to criminal advantage. thirdly, do you have an answer to my question of 'is one case of a person being charged with a crime for lawful self defense a valid enough situation in your mind to justify a stand your ground law'?

can you or will you answer that?
 
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