49 former NASA scientists ask for NASA to stop alarmism

Tell us, then why do so many fear mongers champion the fact that so many National Academies of Science have reached 'consensus' on AGW? The vast majority of the Academies don't have a single 'climatologist' on hand.

Also, what argument am I having with myself? I asked a question, you refused to answer it like a coward and then presented a question. I then answered your question.

Well, for starters you came up with the idea that the only relevant area of expertise is climatology. I never said that. I said that only one of the signatories has any relevant expertise. You still have not refuted that statement, instead you started arguing with yourself about climatology.

The expertise they have is in physics, calculus, statistical analysis. Are you really that naive to believe that they cannot use the same skills to analyze the computer modeling done by 'climatologists'???

Hell you even mock meteorologists as being 'kinda close'. It isn't kinda close moron. The required courses for a 'climatology' degree are physics, calc, stats, meteorology. They then take a few electives after that that 'specialize' in 'climatology'. Yet the base science is in the above four areas.

So any physicist is an expert on climate change?

They don't do the work. They do other work. Like I said, I'm not going to take the word of the co-chairs of the IPCC Working Group I on space shuttle re-entry and I'm not going to take the work of NASA engineers on climate change.
 
I disagree that any type of 'alarm' is needed. We have ample time to find alternatives. We should (and are) be continuing research and development of alternatives, but schemes by politicians for 'cap and trade' are not solutions. They do nothing but allow the government more control and allow wall street yet another way to fuck us over.
I can meet you in the middle here. Though I do agree with the scientific consensus that human activity, i.e. the consumption of vast quantities of fossil fuels, is impacting climate a consensus has not been built as to what the mechanisms are between carbon dioxide and climate change. With that being the case schemes such as cap and trade woulld probably fail. I better understanding would be required before one could justify such regulations which would have vast economic impact. Correlating climate science and public policy are a long, long way from having a consensus.

This in no way undermines climate science but rather reinforces that we need to know a lot more.
 
I can meet you in the middle here. Though I do agree with the scientific consensus that human activity, i.e. the consumption of vast quantities of fossil fuels, is impacting climate a consensus has not been built as to what the mechanisms are between carbon dioxide and climate change. With that being the case schemes such as cap and trade woulld probably fail. I better understanding would be required before one could justify such regulations which would have vast economic impact. Correlating climate science and public policy are a long, long way from having a consensus.

This in no way undermines climate science but rather reinforces that we need to know a lot more.

Saying it is 'impacting the climate' is obvious. It is the statement that man is the primary cause for global warming in the past 50 years that I have a problem with. Their computer models have consistently broken down in the past decade. CO2 continues to rise yet the temps did not follow. That right there should tell them that their 'consensus' needs to rethink/reevaluate their position. What predictions/assumptions were made that turned out to be in error? Why were they in error? I encourage further study in ways to reduce man's long term impact. But as you stated, we are nowhere near close enough to be enacting policy based on the data and results of the models. Especially policies that have a long term negative impact on our economy.
 
I've been reading a lot about climate change, and it's obvious to me that we do need an alarm. But, we won't get one. IMO, after giving this some thought, I feel that if the powers that be actually woke the people up to what was coming, then we'd need like a Manhattan project of climate change. The problem with that is, any solutions, or even coping mechanisms, would involve a restructuring of our society from individualism to some form of collectivism. Now, attempting to verbalize this would be suicide for any politician in this country.

So basically, we are screwed. I've accepted it. I probably won't be around for the worst of it, although, that is not guaranteed as the beginning of the worst of it may arrive sooner than we think. I feel awful for those who come after us, many of whom have already been born. I expect that many of them will spit at the very sound of their parent's and grandparent's names.

But this crisis is so severe that it does call for a complete restructuring of our politics and culture...and that's not going to happen. So that is that.
 
Well, for starters you came up with the idea that the only relevant area of expertise is climatology. I never said that. I said that only one of the signatories has any relevant expertise. You still have not refuted that statement, instead you started arguing with yourself about climatology.

LMAO.... yeah your words were "At least there's one meteorologist, which is at least kinda sorta a relevant area of expertise. " How could I have ever thought you weren't including other areas?

So any physicist is an expert on climate change?

Is that what I said King of Straw men?

They don't do the work. They do other work. Like I said, I'm not going to take the word of the co-chairs of the IPCC Working Group I on space shuttle re-entry and I'm not going to take the work of NASA engineers on climate change.

So you are saying you are incapable of understanding anything that you do not currently work on?
 
"I readily confess a lingering frustration: uncertainties so infuse the issue of climate change that it is still impossible to rule out either mild or catastrophic outcomes, let alone provide confident probabilities for all the claims and counterclaims made about environmental problems."

"On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but — which means that we must include all the doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands, and buts. On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we'd like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climatic change. To do that we need to get some broadbased support, to capture the public's imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This 'double ethical bind' we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Schneider
 
LMAO.... yeah your words were "At least there's one meteorologist, which is at least kinda sorta a relevant area of expertise. " How could I have ever thought you weren't including other areas?

"A relevant area of expertise" implies that there are more that one areas of expertise, not that there is one area of expertise and it is climatology.


Is that what I said King of Straw men?

It kind of is what you are saying. The problem is that you refuse to identify the specific qualifications of these people that would lead me to conclude that I should give a shit what they have to say about the matter.


So you are saying you are incapable of understanding anything that you do not currently work on?

No, I'm capable of understanding it, but I'm not an expert in those fields and would not hold myself out as one, nor would I present myself in any light that would suggest that I have expertise that I do not have. In my business, it's misleading and grounds for a lawsuit.
 
"A relevant area of expertise" implies that there are more that one areas of expertise, not that there is one area of expertise and it is climatology.




It kind of is what you are saying. The problem is that you refuse to identify the specific qualifications of these people that would lead me to conclude that I should give a shit what they have to say about the matter.




No, I'm capable of understanding it, but I'm not an expert in those fields and would not hold myself out as one, nor would I present myself in any light that would suggest that I have expertise that I do not have. In my business, it's misleading and grounds for a lawsuit.

In SF's business it's grounds for a promotion!
 
In one sense, we have ample time; in another, we may have already passed the point of no return.

I don't care if it sounds all enviro-wacko, but the planet is basically dying right now. You really don't have to look any further than the status of the oceanic food supply to see a few red flags for humanity out there.

Kindly cite some examples.
 
"I readily confess a lingering frustration: uncertainties so infuse the issue of climate change that it is still impossible to rule out either mild or catastrophic outcomes, let alone provide confident probabilities for all the claims and counterclaims made about environmental problems."

"On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but — which means that we must include all the doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands, and buts. On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we'd like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climatic change. To do that we need to get some broadbased support, to capture the public's imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This 'double ethical bind' we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Schneider


THIS is what climate scientists are all about. Sell fear.
 
I've been reading a lot about climate change, and it's obvious to me that we do need an alarm. But, we won't get one. IMO, after giving this some thought, I feel that if the powers that be actually woke the people up to what was coming, then we'd need like a Manhattan project of climate change. The problem with that is, any solutions, or even coping mechanisms, would involve a restructuring of our society from individualism to some form of collectivism. Now, attempting to verbalize this would be suicide for any politician in this country.

So basically, we are screwed. I've accepted it. I probably won't be around for the worst of it, although, that is not guaranteed as the beginning of the worst of it may arrive sooner than we think. I feel awful for those who come after us, many of whom have already been born. I expect that many of them will spit at the very sound of their parent's and grandparent's names.

But this crisis is so severe that it does call for a complete restructuring of our politics and culture...and that's not going to happen. So that is that.

People don't really do anything on something like that - something that is very systemic & basic to our "way of life" - until there is a crisis. Problem is, once there is a true crisis on energy consumption or the environment, it will likely be a bit too late to make the kind of radical changes that will need to be made.

Another real bummer is the $$$ that big oil spends in DC to keep the status quo going. No one can compete w/ that....
 
Some examples of what...the planet dying?

Really?

yeah. WTF are you pointing to? What exactly is the planet dying? I call for you to tell us at least a single example of some catastrophic result from CO2 and then source it to the human contribution in the atmsphere. Claiming models and projections doesn't count, dumbass
 
I don't know; the more I read, the more I think cause for "alarm" is real, at least on the general concept of how we're treating the planet and have come to rely so much on finite resources.

Things do need to change, and pretty quickly. I'm fine with some "alarm" out there...

In one sense, we have ample time; in another, we may have already passed the point of no return.

I don't care if it sounds all enviro-wacko, but the planet is basically dying right now. You really don't have to look any further than the status of the oceanic food supply to see a few red flags for humanity out there.

Some examples of what...the planet dying?

Really?


Are you getting 'climate change' mixed up with something else ?......

Climate change is a normal, natural event that is gonna happen no matter what we do......we don't and can't control climate change.....thats the firse thing you have to understand.....

there is no need for alarm....it will happen and has happened in the past.....we will adapt again as we have in the past.....we don't have a choice......

It don't matter how many trees we cut down...or how many miles you drive or how many steaks you do on your grill....thats liberal bullshit....

The world evolves and their is nothing you can do about it.....
 
Are you getting 'climate change' mixed up with something else ?......

Climate change is a normal, natural event that is gonna happen no matter what we do......we don't and can't control climate change.....thats the firse thing you have to understand.....

there is no need for alarm....it will happen and has happened in the past.....we will adapt again as we have in the past.....we don't have a choice......

It don't matter how many trees we cut down...or how many miles you drive or how many steaks you do on your grill....thats liberal bullshit....

The world evolves and their is nothing you can do about it.....

You're an old dude, so you don't care, but our current actions, combined with exponential population growth, are wholly unsustainable. That isn't even something to debate, or dispute: it is just plain fact.
 
yeah. WTF are you pointing to? What exactly is the planet dying? I call for you to tell us at least a single example of some catastrophic result from CO2 and then source it to the human contribution in the atmsphere. Claiming models and projections doesn't count, dumbass

I'm not talking about carbon. I know that's the thread, but it's all interchangeable to me.
 
The signatures are a list of disgruntled, former employees.

Whether human activity is the main cause of global warming, which I doubt, the point is it's contributing to it. Common sense dictates we don't pollute our world.

The argument that cutting back on CO2 emissions will have economic consequences has to be the worst argument against not doing so. The problem is the economic system, the fact it depends on polluting our atmosphere. As Darla stated in msg #24,"...this crisis is so severe that it does call for a complete restructuring of our politics and culture..."
 
You're an old dude, so you don't care, but our current actions, combined with exponential population growth, are wholly unsustainable. That isn't even something to debate, or dispute: it is just plain fact.

Old and conservative. Those folks don't give a damn about anyone.
 
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