A very good summery of the credit problems in the US

While the circumstances surrounding these downfalls vary, one element is identical: the lucrative lending practices of America’s merchants of debt have led millions of Americans — young and old, native and immigrant, affluent and poor — to the brink. More and more, Americans can identify with miners of old: in debt to the company store with little chance of paying up.

It is not just individuals but the entire economy that is now suffering. Practices that produced record profits for many banks have shaken the nation’s financial system to its foundation. As a growing number of Americans default, banks are recording hundreds of billions in losses, devastating their shareholders.



Lenders have found new ways to squeeze more profit from borrowers. Though prevailing interest rates have fallen to the low single digits in recent years, for example, the rates that credit card issuers routinely charge even borrowers with good credit records have risen, to 19.1 percent last year from 17.7 percent in 2005 — a difference that adds billions of dollars in interest charges annually to credit card bills.

Average late fees rose to $35 in 2007 from less than $13 in 1994, and fees charged when customers exceed their credit limits more than doubled to $26 a month from $11, according to CardWeb, an online publisher of information on payment and credit cards.

Mortgage lenders similarly added or raised fees associated with borrowing to buy a home — like $75 e-mail charges, $100 document preparation costs and $70 courier fees — bringing the average to $700 a mortgage, according to the Department of Housing and Urban Development. These “junk fees” have risen 50 percent in recent years, said Michael A. Kratzer, president of FeeDisclosure.com, a Web site intended to help consumers reduce fees on mortgages.

“Today the focus for lenders is not so much on consumer loans being repaid, but on the loan as a perpetual earning asset,” said Julie L. Williams, chief counsel of the Comptroller of the Currency, in a March 2005 speech that received little notice at the time.




And recent changes in the bankruptcy laws, supported by financial services firms, make it all the harder for consumers, especially those with modest incomes, to get out from under their debt by filing for bankruptcy.

But with so many borrowers in trouble, some bankruptcy experts and regulators are beginning to focus on the responsibilities of lenders, like requiring them to make loans only if they are suitable to the borrowers applying for them.

The Federal Reserve Board, for instance, recently put into effect rules barring a lender from making a loan without regard to the borrower’s ability to repay it.
 
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The only problem with that analysis is it places too much of the blame for the current situation on the lenders, and not nearly enough on the borrowers.

Yes, there have been some predatory lending practices going on. But the majority of lending practices have not been predatory, and it is the BIG picture, not a small minority of lending (and borrowing) practices that has yielded the current debt crisis.

For decades now we have been an entire society based on the principle of immediate gratification. This goes way beyond fast food and microwave snack cakes. In a period extending less than 100 years we, as a society, have gone from an expectation that most people who buy a HOUSE save for it BEFORE buying, to a society that most people can't even wait long enough to save for their television. The change has been relatively gradual, but has been accelerating in a very constant gravitation toward a debit based economy.

First came the idea that ownership of a house could no longer wait for a family to save toward. This was partially due to a sudden bump in housing prices after WWI, and partly due to a "keep up with the Joneses" attitude that came out of the "roaring 20s". So the banking market took up the cause, and started issuing long term mortgages that allowed people to get themselves their own house early in life. So people started buying houses on credit.

Next we decided we could no longer wait to buy that new car. And things went rapidly down hill from there. Today many households hardly buy anything without using credit. TVs, stereos, cameras, furniture, even the clothes we wear. Far too few people seem to account for the increased cost of items purchased through credit.

And that is where predatory lending started to rear its ugly head. Like anything else, increasing demand led to the opening of new markets to meet the demand. And one such market has been the practice of high risk lending. High risk lending came about because lower income brackets wanted to keep up with the Joneses, too. But lower income brackets have less ability to pay back the loans. As such, the increased cost of high risk loans resulted in extremely high interest loans coupled with very tight lending practices that instilled the high risk rates and penalties at the first hint of trouble.

One thing to remember in all this, though, is the regulations which allowed interest rates high enough to make high risk lending a profitable market. And those regulation came about, not in response to a demand for high risk credit, but rather during the economic crisis we faced in the late 70s when interest rates were, by necessity, given high ranges to compensate for double digit inflation.

Now one can complain about the morality of lending institutions marketing credit to people they knew had a high chance of defaulting. One can complain about sub-prime lending practices aimed at people who would otherwise have to wait, possibly half their lives or more, to buy their first house.

But without the DEMAND for such types of credit lines such lending practices would not have been marketed. The fact that people are no longer willing to wait for the things they want is the BASE reason we are in the current economic crisis. The fact that people wanted that 4 bedroom house, instead of settling for a much more affordable 2 bedroom house is why we are looking at a housing crisis. The fact that we, as a society, have been in a deficit spending economy for 60+ years is where we need to REALLY focus.

There are some real scum out there who made a lot of money screwing people with predatory lending. And those people need to be dealt with, and laws emplaced to prevent future practices. we need laws that keep interest rates reasonable, and quit allowing interest rates to exceed what used to be considered loan sharking.

But if we want to FIX what is going wrong with our economy - as opposed to putting a band-aid over a deep seated infection - we need to rid ourselves as much as possible from the habits of deficit spending and the need for immediate material gratification.
 
The only problem with that analysis is it places too much of the blame for the current situation on the lenders, and not nearly enough on the borrowers.

Yes, there have been some predatory lending practices going on. But the majority of lending practices have not been predatory, and it is the BIG picture, not a small minority of lending (and borrowing) practices that has yielded the current debt crisis.

For decades now we have been an entire society based on the principle of immediate gratification. This goes way beyond fast food and microwave snack cakes. In a period extending less than 100 years we, as a society, have gone from an expectation that most people who buy a HOUSE save for it BEFORE buying, to a society that most people can't even wait long enough to save for their television. The change has been relatively gradual, but has been accelerating in a very constant gravitation toward a debit based economy.

First came the idea that ownership of a house could no longer wait for a family to save toward. This was partially due to a sudden bump in housing prices after WWI, and partly due to a "keep up with the Joneses" attitude that came out of the "roaring 20s". So the banking market took up the cause, and started issuing long term mortgages that allowed people to get themselves their own house early in life. So people started buying houses on credit.

Next we decided we could no longer wait to buy that new car. And things went rapidly down hill from there. Today many households hardly buy anything without using credit. TVs, stereos, cameras, furniture, even the clothes we wear. Far too few people seem to account for the increased cost of items purchased through credit.

And that is where predatory lending started to rear its ugly head. Like anything else, increasing demand led to the opening of new markets to meet the demand. And one such market has been the practice of high risk lending. High risk lending came about because lower income brackets wanted to keep up with the Joneses, too. But lower income brackets have less ability to pay back the loans. As such, the increased cost of high risk loans resulted in extremely high interest loans coupled with very tight lending practices that instilled the high risk rates and penalties at the first hint of trouble.

One thing to remember in all this, though, is the regulations which allowed interest rates high enough to make high risk lending a profitable market. And those regulation came about, not in response to a demand for high risk credit, but rather during the economic crisis we faced in the late 70s when interest rates were, by necessity, given high ranges to compensate for double digit inflation.

Now one can complain about the morality of lending institutions marketing credit to people they knew had a high chance of defaulting. One can complain about sub-prime lending practices aimed at people who would otherwise have to wait, possibly half their lives or more, to buy their first house.

But without the DEMAND for such types of credit lines such lending practices would not have been marketed. The fact that people are no longer willing to wait for the things they want is the BASE reason we are in the current economic crisis. The fact that people wanted that 4 bedroom house, instead of settling for a much more affordable 2 bedroom house is why we are looking at a housing crisis. The fact that we, as a society, have been in a deficit spending economy for 60+ years is where we need to REALLY focus.

There are some real scum out there who made a lot of money screwing people with predatory lending. And those people need to be dealt with, and laws emplaced to prevent future practices. we need laws that keep interest rates reasonable, and quit allowing interest rates to exceed what used to be considered loan sharking.

But if we want to FIX what is going wrong with our economy - as opposed to putting a band-aid over a deep seated infection - we need to rid ourselves as much as possible from the habits of deficit spending and the need for immediate material gratification.


Oh yes. Blame the victim. How typical of your horseshit worldview.
 
Oh yes. Blame the victim. How typical of your horseshit worldview.

Yes, I blame the consumer who decided to pay and extra 18% instead of waiting and saving up the money.

The lenders did not force anyone to borrow money. The credit card companies did not force anyone to use their cards.


People, not lenders, are the ones who ran up huge bills. They knew what they were making. It is their own idiocy.

They are not victims. They are just whining because they are expected to pay back what they asked to borrow.
 
If you bother to read the article you will see all the ways the fuckers used to tap all the money out of the credit consumer.

They raised all sorts of fees related to lending.

They milked the cash cow after convincing the American public that living in debt was what everyonedid.

Havent you ever wondered why High School kids are not taught about finances?
 
There are lots of pressures to spend like there is no tomorrow and borrow for everything you want.

But there are lots of pressures to look perfect, have sex anytime you can, drink like a fish and do whatever drugs you want.

But the choices are still our to make. It doesn't take a lot of education to see that adding 18% to the price of everything makes no sense.
 
In our past history loans were a safe thing to enter into because they had regulations they had to follow about the responsibility of ability for the client to repay the loan.
The legislation was stripped away and lenders could then make a profit off of people who had next to no ability to repay the loans.

In the past people were told by lenders what they were able to repay and what they would be unable to manage.

In the last decade that barrier slipped away. Next to none of the American public realized this change had happen. For Decades the bank would turn you down for a loan which told you in the same breath that the loan would also harm you. Not any more baby.
 
Yes, I blame the consumer who decided to pay and extra 18% instead of waiting and saving up the money.

The lenders did not force anyone to borrow money. The credit card companies did not force anyone to use their cards.


People, not lenders, are the ones who ran up huge bills. They knew what they were making. It is their own idiocy.

They are not victims. They are just whining because they are expected to pay back what they asked to borrow.


But why are fanny may and freddie mac getting bailed out? Should they be held to the same standard of accountability as individuals. And considering this much debt, it's a joke to say the economy is good. Because we use dishonest metrics like gdp, these propagandistic memes persist unchallenged, except by me.
 
Yes, I blame the consumer who decided to pay and extra 18% instead of waiting and saving up the money.

The lenders did not force anyone to borrow money. The credit card companies did not force anyone to use their cards.


People, not lenders, are the ones who ran up huge bills. They knew what they were making. It is their own idiocy.

They are not victims. They are just whining because they are expected to pay back what they asked to borrow.

What next? Do we give lashings to rape victims?
 
The only problem with that analysis is it places too much of the blame for the current situation on the lenders, and not nearly enough on the borrowers.

Yes, there have been some predatory lending practices going on. But the majority of lending practices have not been predatory, and it is the BIG picture, not a small minority of lending (and borrowing) practices that has yielded the current debt crisis.

For decades now we have been an entire society based on the principle of immediate gratification. This goes way beyond fast food and microwave snack cakes. In a period extending less than 100 years we, as a society, have gone from an expectation that most people who buy a HOUSE save for it BEFORE buying, to a society that most people can't even wait long enough to save for their television. The change has been relatively gradual, but has been accelerating in a very constant gravitation toward a debit based economy.

First came the idea that ownership of a house could no longer wait for a family to save toward. This was partially due to a sudden bump in housing prices after WWI, and partly due to a "keep up with the Joneses" attitude that came out of the "roaring 20s". So the banking market took up the cause, and started issuing long term mortgages that allowed people to get themselves their own house early in life. So people started buying houses on credit.

Next we decided we could no longer wait to buy that new car. And things went rapidly down hill from there. Today many households hardly buy anything without using credit. TVs, stereos, cameras, furniture, even the clothes we wear. Far too few people seem to account for the increased cost of items purchased through credit.

And that is where predatory lending started to rear its ugly head. Like anything else, increasing demand led to the opening of new markets to meet the demand. And one such market has been the practice of high risk lending. High risk lending came about because lower income brackets wanted to keep up with the Joneses, too. But lower income brackets have less ability to pay back the loans. As such, the increased cost of high risk loans resulted in extremely high interest loans coupled with very tight lending practices that instilled the high risk rates and penalties at the first hint of trouble.

Exactly. Immediate gratification is human nature. And if one lender starts to abuse it, he comes out ahead, and everyone in the market has to rape and abuse the flaws in human nature or fail, until the whole thing comes crashing down. It should never have been allowed. It's societies fault for deregulating. We got greedy, we saw the immediate gratification that would result from a short term boom, we allowed the conservatives to dig us into this hole, we knew what was going to happen, and we let it happen anyway.
 
What next? Do we give lashings to rape victims?

I'll be happy to give lashings to any rape victim who fills out papers for, gives personal information for, and then willingly accepts and uses the rape.

Your comparison is ridiculous.

Every person who has a credit card debt willingly applied for the card. They gave up personal information to get the card. And then went and willingly bought items or paid for services with the credit card.

The same can be said for loans.
 
I'll be happy to give lashings to any rape victim who fills out papers for, gives personal information for, and then willingly accepts and uses the rape.

Your comparison is ridiculous.

Every person who has a credit card debt willingly applied for the card. They gave up personal information to get the card. And then went and willingly bought items or paid for services with the credit card.

The same can be said for loans.

This rationale can be used to justify drug dealers. I mean, all the users want the product.
 
If you bother to read the article you will see all the ways the fuckers used to tap all the money out of the credit consumer.

They raised all sorts of fees related to lending.

They milked the cash cow after convincing the American public that living in debt was what everyonedid.

Havent you ever wondered why High School kids are not taught about finances?
First, I read the article. It told me nothing I did not already know. It did tell me there is a large faction out there that, as is typical of the direction modern liberalism has been taking, wants to place all the blame on anyone except the individual person (ie: "victim" as the brain dead would have us believe) who fucked up and made a bad decision.

Second, those fees and interest rates were allowed because our economy was so fucked the "old" rate caps made it impossible to lend money without a net loss. Funny how many have completely forgotten the late 70s. Well we STILL face the consequences of that period in time.

Third, it was NOT the lending institutions that convinced anyone they needed more than they can afford. They DID take advantage of the market created by the attitude, but to blame them for creating it is sheer ignorance.

Fourth, high school kids are given the OPPORTUNITY to learn about home finances, but don't have to because they can take underwater basket weaving as an alternate course, and besides, failing them when they ignore what is taught might hurt their feelings.
 
This rationale can be used to justify drug dealers. I mean, all the users want the product.

The drug users made a choice to start doing drugs. Are they victims or are they people who have a problem based on their own choices.

The difference between drug dealers and banks is that lending money or issuing credit cards (indeed the possession of credit cards or money) is not illegal.

Tens of thousands of people die every year in vehicle accidents caused by drunk drivers. Is this the fault of the liquer store owners? Is the brocery store that sells the beer responsible for the massive number of deaths?

Personal responsibility is what freedom is based on.
 
The drug users made a choice to start doing drugs. Are they victims or are they people who have a problem based on their own choices.
They may be. That doesn't mean the drug dealing industry is innocent.
The difference between drug dealers and banks is that lending money or issuing credit cards (indeed the possession of credit cards or money) is not illegal.

Tens of thousands of people die every year in vehicle accidents caused by drunk drivers. Is this the fault of the liquer store owners? Is the brocery store that sells the beer responsible for the massive number of deaths?

Personal responsibility is what freedom is based on.
As was referenced earlier on another thread, mere legality is a shoddy standard of conduct.
 
My wife and I were both educated in the public schools in Alabama. They routinely finish at the bottom of most studies regarding money spent and academic achievements.

But we carry zero credit card debt. We have no car payment. They only thing we even considered borrowing for is a mortgage.

I had no classes in finances. But I have sense enough to realize that adding almost 20% to the purchase price of an item just to have it sooner is pure folly.
 
They may be. That doesn't mean the drug dealing industry is innocent.

As was referenced earlier on another thread, mere legality is a shoddy standard of conduct.

I never said the drug industry is innocent. But the individual drug user is responsible for their own choices. The individual drug dealer is responsible for their own choices.


The standard of conduct in a free society is simple. If it harms no one else and you are willing to take responsibility for your actions then it should be legal.
 
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