AA-haters: I agree with this form of Affirmative Action, don't you?

Yeah... you are a crackpot who excels at spin. THERE IS NOTHING to indicate the vet run businesses are currently being discriminated against. NOTHING. Therefore, it cannot be AA as we know it today. It is simply a benefit for the vets, a well deserved benefit.

The only way this can be CURRENTLY described as affirmative action is if there is active discrimination ongoing TODAY. There is not. (or at least you have shown no evidence as of yet that even suggests there is)
 
Superfreak said:
Yeah... you are a crackpot who excels at spin. THERE IS NOTHING to indicate the vet run businesses are currently being discriminated against. NOTHING. Therefore, it cannot be AA as we know it today. It is simply a benefit for the vets, a well deserved benefit.

The only way this can be CURRENTLY described as affirmative action is if there is active discrimination ongoing TODAY. There is not. (or at least you have shown no evidence as of yet that even suggests there is)
Click to expand...

Okay, so you're right that these regulations and laws aren't affirmative action.


And the United States Department of Labor is wrong when they say these regulations for disabled vets IS affirmative action (which, if true, would incidently blow away your entire argument you gave early in the thread)


I guess were at an impasse. You're right. And U.S. Department of Labor is wrong. ;)
 
Cypress... AS YOU MENTIONED... laws are amended and changed over time. Situations change over time. The 1974 laws may indeed have been designed to prevent people from discriminating against viet nam vets. That is fine. I understand the department of labors position in NINETEEN SEVENTY FOUR. But here we are TWENTY THREE YEARS later.... it is NOT THE SAME SITUATION.

Or can you provide evidence that there is somehow discrimination taking place against disabled vets here in 2007. NOT 1974... but 2007???
 
Superfreak said:
Yeah... you are a crackpot who excels at spin. THERE IS NOTHING to indicate the vet run businesses are currently being discriminated against. NOTHING. Therefore, it cannot be AA as we know it today. It is simply a benefit for the vets, a well deserved benefit.

The only way this can be CURRENTLY described as affirmative action is if there is active discrimination ongoing TODAY. There is not. (or at least you have shown no evidence as of yet that even suggests there is)
Click to expand...


Dixie? is that you?
 
Superfreak said:
Cypress.... AGAIN... show me where these disabled vet run businesses were being discriminated against. There was NO indication that they were from your article.
Click to expand...

I see this as two issues:

#1) is this affirmative action
#2) Are vets being discriminated against.

they are not one in the same which i think you're trying to manipulate the conversation to be. I personally don't have any background on vets being discriminated against. I don't know. But I do know that this is a clear cut example of affirmative action in making sure that alll groups have representation in government contract.
 
affirmative action
–noun the encouragement of increased representation of women and minority-group members, esp. in employment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1960–65]

—Related forms
af·firm·a·tive-ac·tion, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source affirmative action

n. A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment.
 
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source
affirmative ˌaction noun

(American) the practice of giving better opportunities (jobs, education etc) to people who, it is thought, are treated unfairly (minorities, women etc)
 
Superfreak said:
Um... genius... that is NOT affirmative action. Affirmative action is when a past discrimination is "made right" by a current use of discrimination.
Click to expand...


-Superfreak: "Um... genius... that is NOT affirmative action"

Versus....

-White House and US Department of Labor:

Executive Order 11246
Revised January 4, 2002

Facts on Executive Order 11246 -- Affirmative Action

The Department of Labor's Employment Standards Administration's Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) enforces the Executive Order 11246, as amended; Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended and the affirmative action provisions (Section 4212) of the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act, as amended. Taken together, these laws ban discrimination and require Federal contractors and subcontractors to take affirmative action to ensure that all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm

 
Superfreak said:
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source
affirmative ˌaction noun(American) the practice of giving better opportunities (jobs, education etc) to people who, it is thought, are treated unfairly (minorities, women etc)
Click to expand...

Hmmmmmmmm internet dictionary vs. Department of Labor site with labor laws??????????? tough one:

http://www.dol.gov/vets/usc/usc3842.htm

(a) Any contract in the amount of $25,000 or more entered into by any department or agency for the procurement of personal property and non-personal services (including construction) for the United States, shall contain a provision requiring that the party contracting with the United States shall take affirmative action to employ and advance in employment qualified special disabled veterans, veterans of the Vietnam era, recently separated veterans, and any other veterans who served on active duty during a war or in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign badge has been authorized.
 
Tiana,

SF just doesn't want to admit he was wrong, way back on like the fourth or fight post....when he said these programs were NOT affirmative action.

As we've seen, these laws that apply to veterans go back to 1973, and continue up to the present day. The law prohibits discrimination and calls itself affirmative action.

I seriously doubt the government would adopt anti-disrimination laws for disabled vets ON A WHIM. Obvioulsy, discrimination can and does happen to disabled people.
 
Keep spinning... the government says... take affirmative action to help our vets. Insert the word positive to replace affirmative. It doesn't change what the government is asking those awarding contracts to do. It is a positive action taken on behalf of the vets.

The phrase affirmative action refers as I referrenced. There is a difference, but obviously since it goes against your mindset.. please... spin away.
 
Superfreak said:
Keep spinning... the government says... take affirmative action to help our vets. Insert the word positive to replace affirmative. It doesn't change what the government is asking those awarding contracts to do. It is a positive action taken on behalf of the vets.

The phrase affirmative action refers as I referrenced. There is a difference, but obviously since it goes against your mindset.. please... spin away.
Click to expand...

Every lay, every executive order, every link we've given you specifically states that the purpose of the law to to prevent discrimination against disabled vets, and to use affirmative action to promote government contracts with disabled vets.

You've yet to admit you were wrong when you said these were NOT affirmative action programs - when US DOL and the White House say the ARE.

You've yet to explain why laws prohibiting discrmination against vets were adopted and continue to be enforced, if discrimination is not a problem for disabled people.


Seriously man, you're pulling a Dixie. Is saying you were wrong, really that painful for you?

:ouch:
 
Affirmative Action programs are designed as you say... to prevent discrimination. What you cannot get through your head is the fact that taking affirmative action is not the same as an affirmative action program.

IF there is no discrimination, then it is not an affirmative action program that is preventing discrimination.

Also, are you saying that if the DOL and White House say that the sky is green, that they must therefore be correct?


"You've yet to explain why laws prohibiting discrmination against vets were adopted and continue to be enforced, if discrimination is not a problem for disabled people. "

They were adopted in the early 70's because vets WERE being discriminated against. If that discrimination ceases to exist does that mean that any benefit the disabled vets get is because of affirmative action or is it because it is what the country feels they deserve?

Also, please show just one recent example of a federal contract discriminating against a disabled vet that was enforced.

The law is on the books IN CASE it needs to be enforced. The law also very clearly is talking about the people employers hire when awarded government contracts. It does NOT talk about the ownership of companies with regards to whom the contracts are awarded. The 1999 law that was put in place did not, again that is did not, say anything about current discrimination or affirmative action. It simply stated that the government agencies were to allocate at least 3% of their contracts to companies run by disabled vets. NOWHERE does it state that they are being discriminated against.

If you cannot even comprehend the very sites you are linking me to, then please, go join desh in her moronic little world.
 
Superfreak said:
Affirmative Action programs are designed as you say... to prevent discrimination. What you cannot get through your head is the fact that taking affirmative action is not the same as an affirmative action program.
Click to expand...

http://www.opm.gov/employ/veterans/DVAAP.asp

Most departments and agencies in the Federal government are required to have an affirmative action program for the recruitment, employment, and advancement of disabled veterans. The law requires agencies to develop annual Disabled Veterans Affirmative Action Program (DVAAP) Plans.
 
Darla said:
If we can put a man on the moon, can't we make a nail polish that doesn't chip?
Click to expand...
Hmmmm, a new project for me! This could be worth .........$50!

I have an idea already, maybe some form of ...... No, not giving it away just yet, not before the patents anyway.

Oh yeah, that project I got funded last year (you know the one) will probably be patented at some point. Oh, boy my name on a patent! How cool is that? Cooler than an MBA.
 
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