Abortion

[gfm7175]

This is a fallacy. It's called the "Unplanned Pregnancy" fallacy. It treats a fully foreseeable possibility as though it was a completely unforseen, random event that came out of nowhere, like a meteor falling on a house or a transmission dropout on the freeway.

I really have to remember this.
It's true though that so many people use that terminology ("unplanned pregnancy") as if they have absolutely no idea that heterosexual intercourse CAN lead to pregnancy. I'm going to add that term to my lispy leftist list.

 

[gfm7175]

Sounds good.

It was nice knowing you, Hume.
I'll do my best to get by without your presence on JPP.

 

[Hume]

It was nice knowing you, Hume.

Can't say the same for you.

 

[gfm7175]

The keyword is "murder". Is the termination of a fetus murder?

Is "the fetus" of which you are referencing a living human?
With usage of the word 'murder', you are implying the existence of some sort of law. Which law are you referencing?

 

[Into the Night]

I strongly disagree, but I suggest you read what I have to say below before making judgement calls.

You have nothing to say. Abortion for convenience is murder. It is contracted murder.

Again, I believe the handoff of responsibility has nothing to do with the quality of the man, but rather where the sperm now resides- in the woman. I fully believe that even if the man is the most caring man in the world, the choice to continue or terminate a pregnancy should be the woman's choice alone. I think we might agree that the more caring the man and the more able he is to provide for a potential child, the less likely it is that the woman would terminate a pregnancy, but as far as I'm concerned, the choice should still be the woman's alone.

Murder is the responsibility of the one conducting the murder. The women, and the contractee.

Now here I strongly disagree. The buck stops with the woman in terms of responsibility.

Nope. Contract murders usually have two or more responsible parties.

A man might take off or, for whatever reason, be unavailable once a pregnancy starts.

Did you know abandonment is also a crime?

A pregnant woman -can't- vacate the scene. There are many reasons why a woman may decide to terminate a pregnancy. I've made a thread on said reasons here:

Thread 'Why women have abortions'

Sep 11, 2025

After discussing why women have abortions in another thread whose topic definitely isn't abortions, I decided it would be better to make a thread for the subject instead. Below is an excerpt from an article that lists the different reasons women have abortions:
**
Generally, people use the term “abortion” to refer to the intentional termination of a pregnancy.
The vast majority of abortions take place early in pregnancy. In 2020, 93.1% of abortions in the United States occurred at 13 weeks’ gestation or sooner.
The Turnaway study followed 954 people from across the United...

• Scott
• abortions hannah nichols medicalnewstoday.com reasons women choose to have an abortion stacy henigsman
• Replies: 146
• Forum: General Politics Forum

• 

Murder is murder.

I can certainly acknowledge that some women who terminate their pregnancies may be making a mistake, but I also think that for some, if not most, it was the best decision they could make considering the circumstances.

Murder is never the best decision.

If memory serves, a former stepmother of mine once had an abortion. I don't know the exact circumstances, but I strongly suspect that she made the best choice at the time- I believe she said something to the effect that she just wasn't ready at the time. She now has 2 children.

What about the murder?

...

Irrelevant material removed.

 

[Into the Night]

I believe legality should follow biology. Biologically speaking, a man never has to worry about becoming pregnant, let alone worry about being forced to carry said pregnancy to term. I don't think women should be forced to carry pregnancies to term.



In theory. In practice, the man may be unavailable once a pregnancy starts, or perhaps worse, be an abusive partner. There are many reasons why a woman may choose that terminating a pregnancy is her best option. I listed them in the following thread:

Thread 'Why women have abortions'

Sep 11, 2025

After discussing why women have abortions in another thread whose topic definitely isn't abortions, I decided it would be better to make a thread for the subject instead. Below is an excerpt from an article that lists the different reasons women have abortions:
**
Generally, people use the term “abortion” to refer to the intentional termination of a pregnancy.
The vast majority of abortions take place early in pregnancy. In 2020, 93.1% of abortions in the United States occurred at 13 weeks’ gestation or sooner.
The Turnaway study followed 954 people from across the United...

• Scott
• abortions hannah nichols medicalnewstoday.com reasons women choose to have an abortion stacy henigsman
• Replies: 146
• Forum: General Politics Forum

• 

You cannot justify murder.

 

[Into the Night]

So far, yes. I reserve the right to talk about non human abortions later on in this thread -.-

You are talking about human abortion now. You are trying to justify contract murder.

 

[Into the Night]

Sure, they are a very early stage of human development. The important issue for me here is how intelligent a fetus is in comparison to the pregnant woman who is hosting him.

Irrelevance fallacy.

You removed some of my words.

He can't. Your posts are YOUR posts.

The living human -fetus- was removed from the womb and as a consequence died. I've had a relatively long discussion with IBDaMann on the importance of terminology here. The dictionaries I've seen reference abortions as the termination of a pregnancy and the removal of the fetus, which causes its death. Killing is not a word they use and I think that's for the best.

No dictionary defines any word.

Killing is the word. Murder is the word. It is murder by contract. Word games won't save you.

 

[Into the Night]

This is a fallacy. It's called the "Unplanned Pregnancy" fallacy. It treats a fully foreseeable possibility as though it was a completely unforseen, random event that came out of nowhere, like a meteor falling on a house or a transmission dropout on the freeway.

The actual name of this fallacy is an association fallacy. It attempts to associate random stuff like meteors, etc. with a controllable event, namely the so-called 'unplanned pregnancy'.

An unplanned pregnancy is the same as an unplanned loss at the roulette table, i.e. it is an anticipated possibility. The sex was not randomly imposed on anyone, and if you can't afford to lose your rent money for the month, don't gamble it at the roulette table.

Another example describing the association fallacy.

I get it. The problem is when procreating leads to procreation.

When a life is created, who gets to kill it? Who gets to kill you?

Good question. Since he considers human life so valueless, that includes his own.

 

[Into the Night]

What does consciousness have to do with it?

Nothing.

In coma? Kill em right?

According to LeftNut, that is what he is arguing.

 

[Into the Night]

Fair enough, although I can't say that I've ever participated in such a discussion.

The way that you worded this response sounds like you are in agreement with me that a "brain dead" human is still "living" (due to "being kept alive") and that a human isn't dead until the heart stops beating (meaning the cessation of any "keeping alive" efforts or a continued flatline after several failed revival attempts). IOW, the presence of a heartbeat signifies the presence of life.

People have had their heart stop before and have been revived.

 

[Into the Night]

Is "the fetus" of which you are referencing a living human?
With usage of the word 'murder', you are implying the existence of some sort of law. Which law are you referencing?

I am implying the existence of laws. So is IBDaMann.

If a person causes a women to abort, they can be held up for murder.
If a women decides to kill her own offspring, they can be held up for murder.

For example, in Washington:

RCW​

Murder in the first degree.​

(1) A person is guilty of murder in the first degree when:
(a) With a premeditated intent to cause the death of another person, he or she causes the death of such person or of a third person; or
(b) Under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life, he or she engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to any person, and thereby causes the death of a person; or
(c) He or she commits or attempts to commit the crime of either (1) robbery in the first or second degree, (2) rape in the first or second degree, (3) burglary in the first degree, (4) arson in the first or second degree, or (5) kidnapping in the first or second degree, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or in immediate flight therefrom, he or she, or another participant, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants: Except that in any prosecution under this subdivision (1)(c) in which the defendant was not the only participant in the underlying crime, if established by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, it is a defense that the defendant:
(i) Did not commit the homicidal act or in any way solicit, request, command, importune, cause, or aid the commission thereof; and
(ii) Was not armed with a deadly weapon, or any instrument, article, or substance readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury; and
(iii) Had no reasonable grounds to believe that any other participant was armed with such a weapon, instrument, article, or substance; and
(iv) Had no reasonable grounds to believe that any other participant intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death or serious physical injury.
(2) Murder in the first degree is a class A felony.

Abortion is indifference to human life, and causing death to the other person (the unborn child). (a) (b)

 

[Into the Night]

I really have to remember this.
It's true though that so many people use that terminology ("unplanned pregnancy") as if they have absolutely no idea that heterosexual intercourse CAN lead to pregnancy. I'm going to add that term to my lispy leftist list.

It's actually an association fallacy. The so-called 'unplanned pregnancy' is being improperly associated with purely random events, even though the pregnancy itself is a controllable event. It is the association of other elements across a particular element. A bit like the opposite of a compositional error fallacy, where one element is extended improperly across all elements of a set or to the set itself.

 

[Scott]

One could say that life in general is also completely unfair and unequal.

If we're talking about the lottery of what parents we get and where we're born, sure.

Yes, that's part of it. There's all sorts of other things too that lead towards "unfairness" and "unequalness" in life. It's just the way that life is in an imperfect (sinful) world.

Alright, I think we can agree here.

 

[Scott]

You misunderstand me, not that there aren't some men that ghost women when they hear that they're pregnant. I was referring to the fact that, biologically speaking, men don't do a lot when it comes to creating new life.

That's fair. Focusing solely on the biological aspect, it's true that women "do more". Men have other duties instead, including supporting the woman's physical and emotional wellbeing during that time. Marriage (and the in-principle stability that it provides) plays an important role in that.

What men should when they get a woman pregnant and what they can and/or are willing to do are frequently different things. I definitely like the idea of getting some kind of contract between a man and a woman before they have a child. Marriage is one such contract- it has some advantages, but also some disadvantages. There are things that may help with that, such as prenuptial agreements. I've never been married, so I haven't really investigated all of this that much. Based on the experience of my eldest sister, I've come to the conclusion that marriage doesn't guarantee much.

I've learned over the years that, generally speaking, the "Christian" way of doing things makes A LOT of practical sense and it tends to avoid the pitfalls of "deviating from God's way". Such deviation from God's way typically leads to destruction of some sort rather than fruitfulness.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Christian way. I think we can agree that marriage certainly isn't something that's restricted to Christians.

 

[Scott]

I certainly agree that there are some men who are, shall we say, not exactly good parental figures.

I'd say that there are even some women who aren't exactly good parental figures.

Definitely.

I certainly agree that there are some men who are, shall we say, not exactly good parental figures. That being said, it's not always so clear cut. There are many reasons why a man might not be able to be there much if at all for a woman -without- it being a simple case of just being a bad parental figure. From incarceration, to needing to work long hours to needing to work in another location (if one is in the army, for instance). There are also more exotic cases such as a man who was having marital problems and then has an affair that leads to a pregnancy out of wedlock. I mention that last one because I personally know someone in that boat. The woman chose not to terminate the pregnancy and said man is doing his best to raise 2 children- one with his wife (who he actually had a bit later) and the one with the woman he had an affair with. I think he's a good man who went through a bad spot and is doing the best he can with the result. He loves both his children very much.

I agree that there are unique situations that shouldn't be viewed in the same way as the overarching generalizations that I've presented.

Sounds good

I certainly agree that life is generally easier when a man and a woman have entered some form of contract, such as a marriage, and actually want a child instead of it being the result of an unplanned pregnancy. That being said, even in such cases, things don't always work out. I'm sure you're aware that the divorce rate in the U.S. is pretty high. From an article on the subject:
**

How Many Marriages End in Divorce?​

So, what about the famous statistic that half of all marriages end in divorce? That’s a bit of an exaggeration when it comes to first marriages, only 43% of which are dissolved.2 Second and third marriages actually fail at a far higher rate, though, with 60% of second marriages and 73% of third marriages ending in divorce.3
**
Source:

Revealing Divorce Statistics In 2025

The decision to end a marriage is deeply personal, but there are some widespread factors that weigh into the decision. For example, you’re more likely to divorce if you have divorced friends. And you’re less likely to divorce in Louisiana than in Nevada. We’ve combed through research from the U.S. C

www.forbes.com

I think one knows one is in trouble when a journalist can say that "only" 43% of first marriages are dissolved, and the divorce rate for second and third marriages speak for themselves.

Here, again, I can speak from close second hand experience- my eldest sister (I'm the eldest of my siblings, but I have a younger sister too) got married and got divorced shortly after having her second child. Fortunately for her, my mother had the financial resources to help her out, because her ex husband used a fair amount of his for a child custody battle and only seemed to pay child support when it was his only option to continue his fight for child custody (clever lawyer trick there to force the issue). I think it's a good thing that he lost the child custody battle- in my mind, my sister was much better suited to caring for them than he was.

I agree that divorce rates are quite high, even amongst self-professed Christians. Some reasons for divorce are "godly" while others aren't. This connects back to the fact that "life in general is unfair and unequal".

Alright, looks like we agree on all of this stuff. On to the next post...

 

[Scott]

Agreed.

Agreed.

In an imperfect world, nothing is perfect (DUH! ). Everything that is holy and good can be twisted into something unholy and bad. Marriage, in and of itself a holy and good thing, can be easily twisted into something that no longer resembles God's design and intention for it. That's where destruction (rather than fruitfulness) sets in.

So far, so good.

Abortion (aka a form of contract killing)

And here's where we disagree. A Proud Lefty actually found an article that gets into the difference between contract killing and abortions. It's here if you'd like to take a look:

Abortion is nothing like hiring a hitman, whatever Pope Francis says

Some careful reasoning shows that comparing abortion with contract murder equates two acts that are far from obviously morally equivalent.

theconversation.com

 

[IBDaMann]

Murder is never the best decision.

You are thinking like a conservative. The Party of Death is on the left, where murder, assassination and killing-facilitating defenselessness zones are all perfectly acceptable solutions.

 

[IBDaMann]

It's actually an association fallacy. The so-called 'unplanned pregnancy' is being improperly associated with purely random events, even though the pregnancy itself is a controllable event. It is the association of other elements across a particular element. A bit like the opposite of a compositional error fallacy, where one element is extended improperly across all elements of a set or to the set itself.

At the highest level, the "Unplanned Pregnancy" fallacy is a conflation of "arbitrary" with "random". Sex is an arbitrary decision with forseeable consequences, not a random, uncontrollable occurrence.

If a woman deliberately plans on having sex which has the obvious foreseeable consequence of pregnancy, then she is deliberately accepting the consequence of pregnancy which, if it occurs, was deliberately planned, not unplanned.

Therefore, at the level just below the highest level, the "Unplanned Pregnancy" fallacy is a semantic fallacy, i.e. dishonestly using the word "unplanned" instead of the correct word "unwanted." If a pregnant woman were to be honest and use the phrase "my unwanted pregnancy" then she would be forced to explain why she therefore had sex. Surreptitiously swapping in the word "unplanned" conceals the inconvenient responsibility, and resulting judgement, that the dishonest woman is trying to avoid.

How can a woman create a child whom she HATES enough to want to kill?
What person is so dishonest that he cannot refer to the killing of a living human as a "killing"?

 

[Yakuda]

I am implying the existence of laws. So is IBDaMann.

If a person causes a women to abort, they can be held up for murder.
If a women decides to kill her own offspring, they can be held up for murder.

For example, in Washington:

RCW​

Murder in the first degree.​

(1) A person is guilty of murder in the first degree when:
(a) With a premeditated intent to cause the death of another person, he or she causes the death of such person or of a third person; or
(b) Under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life, he or she engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to any person, and thereby causes the death of a person; or
(c) He or she commits or attempts to commit the crime of either (1) robbery in the first or second degree, (2) rape in the first or second degree, (3) burglary in the first degree, (4) arson in the first or second degree, or (5) kidnapping in the first or second degree, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or in immediate flight therefrom, he or she, or another participant, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants: Except that in any prosecution under this subdivision (1)(c) in which the defendant was not the only participant in the underlying crime, if established by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, it is a defense that the defendant:
(i) Did not commit the homicidal act or in any way solicit, request, command, importune, cause, or aid the commission thereof; and
(ii) Was not armed with a deadly weapon, or any instrument, article, or substance readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury; and
(iii) Had no reasonable grounds to believe that any other participant was armed with such a weapon, instrument, article, or substance; and
(iv) Had no reasonable grounds to believe that any other participant intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death or serious physical injury.
(2) Murder in the first degree is a class A felony.

Abortion is indifference to human life, and causing death to the other person (the unborn child). (a) (b)

Indifference is worse than hate