Abortion

[AProudLefty]

Killing for money is wrong.

In a civil war, poisoning the enemy is A-Okay!

Think that's what @IBDaMann's and @gfm7175's next argument will be?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Did you type, The woman made a choice to allow him to do so? Ever hear of rape? Ever hear of overpowering or drugging?

I addressed that. Consensual sex between two persons is NOT rape. You are deliberately conflating the two to avoid the truth.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Think that's what @IBDaMann's and @gfm7175's next argument will be?

Possibly. Whatever it is, it'll be silly. Sad.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I don't know where you got your statistic, so I decided to do my own research on the subject of repeat abortions. Here's part of an article I found on the subject:
**
About half of all U.S. women having an abortion have had one previously. This fact—not new, but dramatically underscored in a recent report from the Guttmacher Institute on the characteristics of women having repeat abortions—may surprise and concern some policymakers, even prochoice ones. However, policymakers should be more disturbed by the underlying fact that the unintended pregnancy rate in the United States is so high, and that so many women experience repeat unintended pregnancies. Some of these pregnancies end in abortion and some end in unintended births. Indeed, it is not uncommon for a woman to experience both of these outcomes, as well as one or more planned births, during her lifetime.

Reducing repeat abortion must start with reducing repeat unintended pregnancy, which goes back to the basic challenge of helping women prevent unintended pregnancies in the first place. In that regard, the almost 7,500 family planning clinics across the country certainly are doing their share, given that unintended pregnancy prevention is their primary mission. Beyond that, both abortion providers and providers of services to women giving birth also contribute, since contraceptive counseling and the provision of a birth control method upon request are standard components of high-quality postabortion and postpartum care.

Strengthening the linkages between services and between providers would seem to be key, however, if the overall goal is to enable women to better manage their reproductive lives and better plan whether and when to have a child or another child. But fostering continuity of care between abortion clinics and contraceptive services programs might be easier said than done. The contentious politics of abortion and the culture wars associated with it have led to the isolation of abortion as a medical service and to the stigmatization of both abortion clients and providers. Indeed, particularly for young and low-income women among whom unintended pregnancy and recourse to abortion are especially common, state and federal government policies over the last 25 years have only exacerbated the situation, by consciously driving wedges between providers of publicly subsidized contraceptive services and facilities providing abortions.

Abortion vs. Repeat Abortion​

Although not widely recognized, the U.S. abortion rate reached its height in the early 1980s and has been drifting downward ever since. Over the last few years, however, the decline would appear to have stalled. At the current rate, about one-third of all U.S. women will have had an abortion by age 45. Certain groups are overrepresented among women having abortions: those who are young, poor or near-poor, black, Hispanic or unmarried, and those who already have had one child. Fifty-four percent of women having abortions used some method of contraception during the month they became pregnant. The tiny sliver of all sexually active women not practicing contraception (11%) accounts for the remaining half of all abortions.

According to the 2006 Guttmacher Institute report Repeat Abortion in the United States, women having a second or higher-order abortion are substantially different from women having a first abortion in only two important ways: They are more than twice as likely to be age 30 or older and, even after controlling for age, almost twice as likely to already have had a child. (Among all women having an abortion, six in 10 are mothers.)

Just as with women having their first abortion, however, the majority of women having their second or even their third abortion were using contraceptives during the time period in which they became pregnant. In fact, women having a repeat abortion are slightly more likely to have been using a highly effective hormonal method (e.g., the pill or an injectable). This finding refutes the notion that large numbers of women are relying on abortion as their primary method of birth control. Rather, it suggests that women having abortions—especially those having more than one—are trying hard to avoid unintended pregnancy, but are having trouble doing so.

More effective conraceptive use would help women reduce their risk of unintended pregnancy, which in turn would lead to fewer abortions (including fewer repeat abortions) and fewer unintended births.​

Moreover, according to the Guttmacher analysis, women at risk of having a repeat abortion share many of the same characteristics as women at risk of having a repeat unintended birth, including age, number of prior births, and race and ethnicity. The associations with race and ethnicity, as well as poverty, are particularly striking among women having repeat unintended births: Almost half of black women and about 40% of poor and low-income women have had at least one unintended birth.

Indeed, unintended births are as common among U.S. women as is abortion: Almost one-third of all women aged 15–44 report having had at least one unintended birth. A minimum of four in 10 women of reproductive age have had at least one unintended pregnancy, whatever the outcome. Accordingly, as stated in the Guttmacher report, "it is possible, if not likely, that women who have had a prior abortion have also had other unintended pregnancies, some of which they carried to term."

Clearly, more effective contraceptive use would help women reduce their risk of unintended pregnancy, which in turn would lead to fewer abortions (including fewer repeat abortions) and fewer unintended births. To improve contraceptive use, a woman first needs good counseling, which will increase her chances of selecting the contraceptive method that is right for her at that particular time in her life. Then she needs easy and affordable access to her chosen method and to the necessary services to support her choice over time. Although having good access to contraceptive services is important for all sexually active women, it seems especially important for women having abortions and women giving birth (whether intended or unintended), who constitute a self-selected group—perhaps a high-risk one at that.
**

Source:

Repeat Abortion, Repeat Unintended Pregnancy, Repeated and Misguided Government Policies

About half of all U.S. women having an abortion have had one previously. This fact—not new, but dramatically underscored in a recent report from the Guttmacher Institute on the characteristics of women having repeat abortions—may surprise and concern some policymakers, even prochoice ones...

www.guttmacher.org

I dont remember where I saw it but of course this is information that is TABOO. I of course dont know if this is true but the story that a small number of women consume the majority of abortions sounds true....I certainly have heard of individual women admitting to having many abortions.

 

[Scott]

No, the problem is when having -sex- leads to pregnancy. A lot of sex doesn't actually end in pregnancy, especially if contraceptives are used.

Apparently mommy never told you the purpose of sex.

There's several purposes/benefits of having sex:

Purposes of Sex

How do your kids understand sex? By explaining sex in an honest and direct manner, you can help them to bridge sex with intimacy and love.

www.psychologytoday.com

Benefits of Sex You May Not Know

Sex releases feel-good hormones and makes you feel closer to your partner or more attuned to your body. Learn what science says about the benefits of sex.

www.verywellhealth.com

 

[Scott]

Depends on the life in question. If it's not a human life, a lot of people can end it. Think of all the livestock that is killed every day for human consumption. If it's a human life, on the other hand, it depends- if you're a super power or one of its close allies, you can kill human life with relative impunity- the U.S. government has apparently killed millions over the years:

A human being is not a cow. It is not a chicken. It is not livestock.

Agreed. I'm just trying to point out the hypocrisy of caring so much about a human fetus simply because it's human and so little about the welfare of other species. As I've said before, I think what we should be focusing on are things like intelligence as well as independence to some extent- such as independence from depending on someone else's body just to live.

War is not murder.

True, though there's plenty of evidence that a lot of murders are committed during wars.

Abortion is murder.

Here we disagree, for reasons I've already given.

 

[Scott]

If they found a fetus like life form on another planet what would the response be?

I imagine it'd depend on the life form in question.

Stop it. If they found something like a fetus that was alive on another planet they would cream their shorts

Again, I think it'd depend on the life in question. Surely you realize that the alien in the original alien film had some strong similarities to a fetus when they initially found them.

 

[Scott]

I believe that's how things should be because the man made the choice to inject the female via the vagina with his sperm. After this point, I believe what the famel does with the sperm should be up to her.

Not her decision alone. As I already mentioned, the man choose to inject the woman via the vagina with sperm. Had he not done so, there would be no sperm to become pregnant with.

No hang on. you say the woman should do what she wants with the sperm. Fine. But then the man is off the hook. He decided to make a deposit but she decided to receive the deposit.

Think of it this way- I give you a seed for a tree. Once given, the seed is yours to do with as you wish. Now, it would ofcourse be different if I gave you a seed after signing a contract wherein you said you'd do x or y with the seed if you manage to get it to grow. This is called birth surrogacy, and there are certainly laws on that:
The Legal Ethics of Birth Surrogacy: Theory and Practice | Georgetown Law

Failing the signing of such a contract, it's up to you what you do with it. Now, ofcourse, there are added complications when it comes to a -human- seed, namely that, unlike a seed for a tree, there are legal obligations once a human seed starts to grow inside a womb.

What those legal obligations are depends on where you reside. I personally believe that since the garden wherein the seed grows is a woman's, she should have the choice whether she wants to keep growing the seed or whether she removes it. If she chooses to keep it, there are legal obligations regarding taking care of the seed after it leaves the garden. There, both parents have an obligation. And again, if a potential father doesn't want to be a father, he should be careful as to who he gives his seed to.

 

[Into the Night]

There's several purposes/benefits of having sex:

Purposes of Sex

How do your kids understand sex? By explaining sex in an honest and direct manner, you can help them to bridge sex with intimacy and love.

www.psychologytoday.com

Benefits of Sex You May Not Know

Sex releases feel-good hormones and makes you feel closer to your partner or more attuned to your body. Learn what science says about the benefits of sex.

www.verywellhealth.com

Psychoquackery won't help you.

 

[Into the Night]

Agreed. I'm just trying to point out the hypocrisy of caring so much about a human fetus simply because it's human and so little about the welfare of other species.

A human being is not a cow or a chicken. You cannot justify murder.

As I've said before, I think what we should be focusing on are things like intelligence as well as independence to some extent- such as independence from depending on someone else's body just to live.

Irrelevance fallacy. Repetition fallacy.

True, though there's plenty of evidence that a lot of murders are committed during wars.

War is not murder.

Here we disagree, for reasons I've already given.

Irrelevant. You can't change it. Abortion for convenience is murder. It is contract murder. Mott and bailey fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

Think of it this way- I give you a seed for a tree. Once given, the seed is yours to do with as you wish. Now, it would ofcourse be different if I gave you a seed after signing a contract wherein you said you'd do x or y with the seed if you manage to get it to grow. This is called birth surrogacy, and there are certainly laws on that:
The Legal Ethics of Birth Surrogacy: Theory and Practice | Georgetown Law

Failing the signing of such a contract, it's up to you what you do with it. Now, ofcourse, there are added complications when it comes to a -human- seed, namely that, unlike a seed for a tree, there are legal obligations once a human seed starts to grow inside a womb.

What those legal obligations are depends on where you reside. I personally believe that since the garden wherein the seed grows is a woman's, she should have the choice whether she wants to keep growing the seed or whether she removes it. If she chooses to keep it, there are legal obligations regarding taking care of the seed after it leaves the garden. There, both parents have an obligation. And again, if a potential father doesn't want to be a father, he should be careful as to who he gives his seed to.

A human being is not a plant. You cannot justify murder.

 

[Scott]

We weren't talking about the subset of contract killings; we are talking about the entire set of contract killings. Stay focused.

You know full well that I don't agree with your notion that abortion is a subset of contract killings.

Sybil is an example of why we need retroactive abortion.

I actually agree with IBD on several issues, such as his dislike of Covid vaccines. At one point, he even suggested that my belief that biological viruses might not be real might be correct. On the issue of abortions, I suspect we won't find an agreement, but I think we're at least getting down to the reasons why we won't find that agreement. I suspect it'll be useful in any future discussions I have with people who are on the opposite side of this issue with me.

 

[Scott]

I'm not sure what you mean by the Christian way.

What I mean by that is following what The Bible (taken as a whole) says about various subjects. For instance, there's a lot of good practical advice found in Proverbs. Upon study, there's also a lot of good reasons for why various OT Laws were established for the nation of Israel.

Ah alright, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Scott]

And here's where we disagree. A Proud Lefty actually found an article that gets into the difference between contract killing and abortions. It's here if you'd like to take a look:

Abortion is nothing like hiring a hitman, whatever Pope Francis says

Some careful reasoning shows that comparing abortion with contract murder equates two acts that are far from obviously morally equivalent.

theconversation.com

I read through the article. I didn't notice anywhere within the article where it clearly defined the term 'contract killing' (the agreed-upon killing of a living human by a "professional killer" on behalf of a "customer") and clearly reasoned how abortion isn't a specific subset of the term 'contract killing'.

Would you agree that a contract killing basically means hiring a hitman to kill someone? If so, I think the title alone suggests that he's talking about contract killings. For anyone in the audience who hasn't yet seen the title of the article:

Abortion is nothing like hiring a hitman, whatever Pope Francis says

Some careful reasoning shows that comparing abortion with contract murder equates two acts that are far from obviously morally equivalent.

theconversation.com

We've already agreed with each other that it is a living human that is being unalived (IOW, a living human was directly caused to be no longer living).

A living human -fetus-. For me, and, I imagine, most if not all people on the pro choice side of things, it's crucially important to distinguish between a human fetus and a human who's life is not sustained by a woman's body.

A doctor (in this case, a professional killer)

And here is where disagree- it all comes down to how we define abortion. I define it as the termination of a pregnancy, or the removal of a fetus from a pregnant woman who doesn't want to carry said fetus to term. You define it as killing a living human.

 

[Scott]

I'm sure you know there are ways to avoid having a child,

I am aware. However, the only sure-fire way to avoid having a child is to ABSTAIN from heterosexual intercourse.

I think we can agree that there are some men and women that, for whatever reason, can't have children. If we can agree to that, than we can also agree that it is safe for these men and women to have sexual intercourse to their heart's content and not worry about having children.

Now for the harder part- men and women who -can- have children, but who can take steps to decrease the likelihood of this happening. I suspect that we each have our ideas as to whether or not these individuals should have sex. I think it's safe to say that I'd lean more towards permissiveness and you'd lean the other way.

I think we can agree that marriage is a type of contract.

Agreed (on a surface level).

I suspect you're alluding to the fact that from a Christian perspective, marriage is a unique type of contract. If so, I will say that even in purely civilian terms, that's still true. From what I've seen, marriage contracts have both pros and cons. Suffice it to say that I haven't ruled out getting married at some point, though I'd first need to get a girlfriend again .

I definitely like the idea of some kind of contract before the possibility of impregnating a woman. I see it as akin to having car insurance to drive a car.

I like that idea too (which is why I strongly recommend marriage BEFORE ever having sex). The idea is to form stability (a lifelong commitment to another person, or as I say, a "joining together of two separate bodies into a single unified body") before attempting to bring another human into the world. Of course, life isn't perfect/fair/equal/etc, and "shit happens", but that's the principle of the matter and that process very often works out a lot better than making careless decisions instead. In fact, the very decision to enter into a marriage itself can be a careless decision (which will often end in divorce or other unpleasantness).

Because of the cons I've seen concerning marriage, I'm not sure if it would always be recommendable to get married before having sex. I suspect your belief on marriage might be absolute- that is, if a couple isn't ready to get married, they're not ready to have sex. As far myself, I'd say that whether to have sex before marriage with someone or whether to have sex and/or get married with someone has to be examined on a case by case basis.

 

[Scott]

This part may not go over so well with non Christians, but as you know, I do think that contracts before complicated endeavours like potential pregnancies are a good idea.

I think you're right (that it probably wouldn't go over so well with numerous non Christians). I also think that some non Christians can see the practical reasoning behind what I am saying and why I am saying it (even if they don't "fear God" as I [should] do).

Yes, I can definitely see the practical reasoning. My father was never a Christian as far as I know, but he still got married with my mother. Stayed that way for around 25 years after having had 4 children with her before getting divorced.

 

[Scott]

Sure. I think the hard part can be figuring out which habits are good and which ones are bad.

Discernment isn't always easy, that's for sure. Some things are rather "black/white" (aka "oppressive slavery is evil") while other things are much "grayer" (aka "I know that I shouldn't tell lies, but I can save someone else's life by telling a lie in this instance". Christians tend to pray to God for proper discernment under such "grayer" circumstances.

As a Pantheist, I too believe in God, even if my definition of God is a bit different than that of Christians. I tihnk that too pray for the same thing in my own way.

 

[Hawkeye10]

As a Pantheist, I too believe in God, even if my definition of God is a bit different than that of Christians. I tihnk that too pray for the same thing in my own way.

If we can expand the definition of God to an individual and collective state of mind we Zennists believe in God as well.

 

[Scott]

Well, I'll say right off the bat that I've never been married, but I've certainly had sexual intercourse and I don't think there was anything wrong with that.

I think that there was something wrong with that (as that it is a deviation away from God's design for sexual intercourse). I realize that you aren't a Christian as I am, but sex is the most intimate/special of relations that one can have with someone else and I think that it's better off to keep that sort of thing as something special with a "special someone" (marriage) rather than offering it up to multiple people. Of course, there are some exceptions to that general statement (e.g. certain instances of divorce, death of spouse).

I think that you "deep down" know that there was something wrong with what you had done because you (see below) make mention of "had I gotten any of these 3 women pregnant" as well as "... have a backup plan just in case a pregnancy results anyway".

IOW, you knew that having sex outside of marriage could very well lead to having children that you weren't prepared to have (and that you didn't desire to have), but you also knew that sex "FEELS REALLY GOOD", so you eventually succumbed to that temptation because you entertained the thought of having sex outside of marriage.

I think of life as something like a casino- we all make gambles in our choices. Sometimes our gambles pay off, sometimes they don't. I don't regret having sex with the 3 women in question. Perhaps you could say I got lucky in how things turned out.

Now, you could say, what about a contract, to which I'd say, my word is my bond

Verbal agreement

Now that I think about it, there was no verbal agreement as to what would happen if any of them got pregnant. I just know I would have respected any of their decisions on whether to keep the pregnancy or have an abortion (and even contributed monetarily to an abortion if I had the money).

Had I gotten any of these 3 women pregnant, I would have respected her decision to keep or terminate the pregnancy. I would have even helped pay for her to have an abortion, assuming I had the money to do so. The first woman, I wouldn't have had the money, but I used a condom, so that would have been unlikely. Second woman, she used protection and we were in Canada, where abortions are paid for by the government. Third time, lots of unprotected sex, but she was on the pill and I had some money at the time.

So in summation, I see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and not having children, but to definitely have a backup plan just in case a pregnancy results anyway. And yes, I think that one option should be abortion, but only if the woman is amenable. If not, the man should have to do what he can to pay child support.

In summation, you're still condoning a specific subset of 'contract killing'

I think you know at this point that I don't agree that abortion is a subset of contract killing.

 

[Scott]

From personal experience, I think that desire to have sex can be pretty strong, especially when one is in one's younger years. I think we could say that a lot of people take risks when they are young and then pay the consequences for risks taken that don't turn out well.

Correct. That's why I highly recommend immediately RUNNING AWAY from such temptations rather than entertaining them. Once entertained, temptations gain power and become increasingly harder to resist.

Consumated temptations can turn into good memories. I'm now 49 years old and I've considered the possibility that I won't have any more girlfriends from here on out. Which means that those consumated temptations may well be my only memories of sexual intercourse for the rest of my life.