After 107 years in Milwaukee, Harley could leave

Wickedjews said:
This is, in my opinion, the main problem with globalization. The fact that suppressing labor can give you a market advantage. A nation that allows labor unions is going to have an advantage over one that does not, but it does not have anything to do with the free market. They gain their advantage through government force, by the government pushing their people further and further into poverty and slavery.
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Labor Unions are one of the surest indicators of a free society. Love them or hate them that is the truth. Show me one totalitarian state that has labor unions? Just one! When a state goes authoritarian and starts disregarding individual rights one of the first institutions they attack are labor unions. Totalitarian regimes won't tolerate them at all! And spare me the canard about labor unions being socialist. Socialism won't tolerate labor unions either. How many labor unions do you see in China or Cuba? None! that's how many.

The sad truth is Yurt Hates unions because he hates working class people and resents that they can have a high standard of living from doing productive work, which is probably something Yurt has never done a day in his life.
 
Socrtease said:
Unions had a purpose once. They helped improved working conditions and improved wages, but now, they refuse to concede anything when businesses need that. GM spends tons of money on their agreements with unions. They pay tons of money to people that don't even produce for them anymore. There has to be a happy medium. I don't want to go back to the days of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company but I also don't think that companies should be paying so much to union employees that it hurts the cost of doing business. Businesses exist to make money. If they don't they go where they can.
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I couldn't disagree with you more Socr. Why? Because it's a double standard. Let me ask you this. Do you have the right, as a profesional, to charge what the market will bear for your services? I'll assume your answer is yes and I would agree with you that you do have that right.

Well why do you have this right and corporations have that right but working class people don't? That is hypocritical as hell. I mean what you are essentially saying is that an employee has a responsiblilty to help their company maximise that companies profits (which they do) but that they don't have the right to negotiate the highest wages that same market can bear for their services. That they don't have the same right to their fair share of the economic pie they work so hard to help produce. That's not only wrong and hypocritical, it's unethical as hell.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Labor Unions are one of the surest indicators of a free society. Love them or hate them that is the truth. Show me one totalitarian state that has labor unions? Just one! When a state goes authoritarian and starts disregarding individual rights one of the first institutions they attack are labor unions. Totalitarian regimes won't tolerate them at all! And spare me the canard about labor unions being socialist. Socialism won't tolerate labor unions either. How many labor unions do you see in China or Cuba? None! that's how many.
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Well, in China it's actually illegal to hold Marxist materials either. But it would be incorrect to say that classical (Marxist and other radical influenced socialism that we often label as "communist" today) socialism was opposed to labor unions. Syndicalist, for instance, believed in bringing about a socialist revolution through uniting all labour through unions.

Mott the Hoople said:
The sad truth is Yurt Hates unions because he hates working class people and resents that they can have a high standard of living from doing productive work, which is probably something Yurt has never done a day in his life.
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Seriously, what is wrong with unions acting as a counterbalance to the force of corporations? The united force of the corporation is always going to be able to win every battle with the divided force of labour. In these days, it's becoming more and more essentially a requirement that you shut up and enjoy being a slave, and just stand by passively as the standard of life of the middle and lower classes slips further and further into oblivion.
 
Wickedjews said:
This is, in my opinion, the main problem with globalization. The fact that suppressing labor can give you a market advantage. A nation that allows labor unions is going to have an advantage over one that does not, but it does not have anything to do with the free market. They gain their advantage through government force, by the government pushing their people further and further into poverty and slavery.
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My bet is that when enough Americans have been reduced to third world poverty and get fed up with working long hours and living in poverty that it will be labor unions that lead the fight against this race to the bottom.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Well golly,that's all you've got too...no proof, only your opinions.

If it's okay for you, why isn't it okay for Rana?

Oh right...I forgot you are another two-faced, partisan hack.
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One need not be partisan to not like to hear other opinions.
 
Socrtease said:
Unions had a purpose once. They helped improved working conditions and improved wages, but now, they refuse to concede anything when businesses need that. GM spends tons of money on their agreements with unions. They pay tons of money to people that don't even produce for them anymore. There has to be a happy medium. I don't want to go back to the days of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company but I also don't think that companies should be paying so much to union employees that it hurts the cost of doing business. Businesses exist to make money. If they don't they go where they can.
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I think the model of unionization should be changed in the US. Currently, a majority of workers can unionize the entire workplace through an election, and the union is forced to represent the entire workplace whether or not everyone is a member (this obviously makes unionization a hassle in right-to-work states, because you can gain all the benefits of being in a union without paying dues). Unions should be voluntary associations, and they shouldn't be required to represent workers who don't want to join.

I do, however, think that we should perhaps pursue a fair trade stance so that nations we are trading with. Nations that do not allow unions should be tariffed an equivalent amount to the economic advantage they gain from not doing so, so that they are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by their decision in our markets.
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Harley has paid a divident for the last 10 years. They couldn't do that if their economic situation wasn't sustainable. Could they make more money if they had their Motorcycles manufactured in China witn $0.50/hour labor? Sure! But they'd have a marketing and PR disaster on their hands cause it's those same union scale working class people who buy their bikes!

As for the rest of your diatribe. It aint about fucking being made by union workers. It's about being made in the USA by skilled crafstman who take pride in their work and heritage but obviosly your the only mother fucker on this planet who deserves a living wage. You fucking moron wingnuts won't be happy until all working people are making the same wages as their Chinese counterparts.

That's what I don't get Yurt. Why the fuck do you hate working class people so much? What did they ever do to you besides trying to make an honest living and earn a living wage? Why do you hate them so much? They've done a hell of a lot more to build this nation into what it is then some hack lawyer. That's for sure.
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fuck you mott and your worthless drivel....i'm working class too, EG, i work for a living

so you can shut yer pie hole with your holier than thou attitude
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Well golly,that's all you've got too...no proof, only your opinions.

If it's okay for you, why isn't it okay for Rana?

Oh right...I forgot you are another two-faced, partisan hack.
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where did i say it wasn't right for her to have opinions....oh thats right, i didn't...nice try liar

care to spread some more straw around your manure...
 
Zurt said:
Yurtsie forgot to accuse Rana of being a stalker and a troll. He must be having an emo fit.

Yurtsie!
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why would i do that, she doesn't stalk all my posts at usmb and then steal my avatar from there and use it here....

whats the matter coward....still too scared to reveal your users over there

lol
 
Yurt said:
lmao....after zurt legion troll thanks zappy...zappy still tells him to fuck off

poor stalker legion troll :(
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Trolls suck...plain and simple...they are cowards, too gutless to post their comments under their regular screen name.
 
Norman Paperman said:
You know, bottom line, union or no, unless something is done, 1.400 Milwaukee area residents will be out of work.
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Hey if Harley is in that deep of financial straights then ultimately the'll show the books to the union reps and they'll have no choice but to grant concessions. More then likely though Harley is under intense pressure to transfer production operations over seas where labor is dirt cheap and safety and environmental laws are more lax.

There's two problems for Harley if they cave into that pressure. If they move their operations over seas then they will alienate a huge segment of their market. It would be the same sort of dim witted short sightedness that nearly bankrupted them during their AMF years. I know a whole hell of a lot of bikers who would just give up riding if it means buying a Harley that is "Made in China". So I suspect that Harley is bluffing for concessions. The fact that they have consistently paid dividends over the last 10 or more years tells me they aint hurting that bad.
 
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