Alabama Shooting

OK, you do make a point but I have to make one here too. Show me one...just one...thought of Dixie's that is rational.
I already did: that we need to look at our culture of violence instead of blaming hardware (and through that, law abiding owners of such hardware.) I agree with that idea 1000%.

You may not like where he took the idea (ie: culture of violence stemming from taking God out of public education). But the idea itself (culture vs hardware) is WAY more rational than those who want to respond to these types of incidents by interfering with the rights and liberties of law abiding citizens. Especially since the types of action you support with your initial posts would make zero difference in preventing the types of incidents that prompted you to start this thread. (A fact which you have already acknowledged.)
 
You may not like where he took the idea (ie: culture of violence stemming from taking God out of public education).

Let me just say, I only mentioned that as one example, there are many. For some reason, as soon as it is mentioned, it is like Holy Water to the anti-religious, they begin to writhe and moan like tormented demons. It's really intriguing to watch, to be honest. We live in a time, where it's politically incorrect to hold reverence for God, to acknowledge God, or to place any intellectual value on the existence of God. It has so permeated our culture, that people who actually do believe in God, are afraid to admit it publicly, for fear of being branded.

The thing about me is, I don't really give a shit about what other people think of me. If you want to believe I am some "religious wacko" who wants to force Christianity down everyone's throat, because I believe in a God, then so be it. I have repeatedly said of my own personal faith, I am a Spiritualist, not a Christian. I have a lot of reservations with the Christian faith... I think they have some things right, but are way off on others. The same can be said for Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and any other organized religion. I personally believe mankind is too stupid to understand or comprehend what God really is, or how we are supposed to deal with Him. In our inadequate stupidity, we've constructed all kinds of denominational beliefs and dogma, in an attempt to define and characterize God, and sometimes, maybe we get close to understanding, but for the most part, we are simply not capable of it.

That said, I am not "anti-religious" or "pro-religious" ...I am neutral... a moderate... somewhere in the middle of the road. I don't just "believe" there is something greater than self, I KNOW there is, it doesn't require proof. To argue with me, there is no God, is the same as me trying to convince you that your own mother doesn't exist. So, I kind of have a distinct advantage when it comes to philosophical discussions on the existence of God, because I know the truth, there is no doubt whatsoever.

Back on topic.... Our societal culture has been eroded. Through the years, we've allowed those who don't believe in a God, to shape and mold humanity as they deem appropriate. We've castigated those who believe, and ostracized them to the point they are somewhat afraid to even admit they believe in God. It has somehow become a sign of weakness in the mind, or lack of intelligence, to say you actually do believe. We walk around on egg shells, avoiding the direct implication that we believe, because we want others to think of us as smart, profound, intellectual... not confined in our thinking to some religious dogma. It's a nasty cycle which has perpetuated itself through the years, and brought us to this place we are today.

Someone says, we should abandon prayer in school, because it's unfair to recite a Christian prayer... and we nod in agreement... yeah, we shouldn't allow that! It doesn't matter that the purpose and intent of the prayer is important to our culture, or helps to instill values and morals, it's Christian so it must go! Someone says, we shouldn't allow a 10 Commandments monument to be on display in the Alabama State House, and we nod in agreement... yeah, that's establishing a religion, and we can't do that! Never mind the fact that this monument was not ever intended to endorse or promote any particular religion, and only served as a symbol to the principles our justice system is founded on.... it's Christian, so it must go!

In our haste to strip society of anything related to Christianity, we are also stripping society of anything related to humanity, love, forgiveness, decency, ethics, morality, values, etc. We do this out of a false fear... the fear that a Christian symbol may somehow "force" someone to be a Christian! When the truth of the matter is, you CAN'T be a Christian unless you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
 
I do not discount the idea that the retreat from public acknowledgment of religion. However I also think the development of a culture of violence is far more complicated, and if religion (or lack thereof) is involved, it is more a side effect symptom of a much larger picture.

Of note is when people go berserk, they come from many backgrounds, both religious and non. The basic demographics of people who "go postal" does not differ significantly from the demographics of our nation as a whole. There are people who were raised with strict religious principles, those who were not, and everything in between. The same holds true for other instances of general violence which are not a part of the "normal" scene of criminal violence.

The culture of violence comes from something else. IMO, the manner Christian religious expression has been removed from public (ie: tax payer subsidized) venues is not so much a factor in the culture of violence, but rather a secondary (tertiary?) symptom of those factors which are, in actuality, driving the culture of violence. IOW, it is not lack of religion in public venues driving (or helping to drive) the culture of violence, but rather the same factors driving the culture of violence are also resulting in a general social retreat from religion.
 
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I think I can go along with what you are saying, that the stripping of God from schools and government is a symptom of the culture of immorality, but it's sort of a "chicken or egg" argument, in my opinion. They simply go hand in hand. While it is very true that the type of behavior of "the postal ones" comes from diverse backgrounds, the fact remains, most sociopath behavior stems from something traumatic in ones life. Maybe a person came from a heavily religious upbringing, but if his priest was fucking him in the ass on a regular basis, this may have caused trauma which would culminate in sociopath behavior... then we look at this individual and say... well, he was raised in a religious environment, and he still "went postal" so that must not be a detrimental factor. There is basically no way for us to know or understand why sociopaths behave the way they do, they all have individual reasons for their particular behaviors.

We can, however, see a correlation between random acts of violence like this, and the demise of morality in our social structure, from removing school prayer, to popularizing violent entertainment, glorifying violence in music and video games, and moving further and further away from a well-structured moral environment as a whole. It's not just one thing or two things, it's dozens and dozens of things, and we keep coming up with new things along the way. We continue to perpetuate the same mentality and condition which makes this type of behavior more prevalent and pervasive in society.
 
I think I can go along with what you are saying, that the stripping of God from schools and government is a symptom of the culture of immorality, but it's sort of a "chicken or egg" argument, in my opinion. They simply go hand in hand. While it is very true that the type of behavior of "the postal ones" comes from diverse backgrounds, the fact remains, most sociopath behavior stems from something traumatic in ones life. Maybe a person came from a heavily religious upbringing, but if his priest was fucking him in the ass on a regular basis, this may have caused trauma which would culminate in sociopath behavior... then we look at this individual and say... well, he was raised in a religious environment, and he still "went postal" so that must not be a detrimental factor. There is basically no way for us to know or understand why sociopaths behave the way they do, they all have individual reasons for their particular behaviors.

We can, however, see a correlation between random acts of violence like this, and the demise of morality in our social structure, from removing school prayer, to popularizing violent entertainment, glorifying violence in music and video games, and moving further and further away from a well-structured moral environment as a whole. It's not just one thing or two things, it's dozens and dozens of things, and we keep coming up with new things along the way. We continue to perpetuate the same mentality and condition which makes this type of behavior more prevalent and pervasive in society.
Everything you name is more a symptom of a culture of violence, not a cause. Violence is glorified in music and on television BECAUSE we are a culture of violence. Violence is used more often as a means BECAUSE we are a culture of violence.

The question is WHY are we a culture of violence.

To quote a favorite movie of mine:
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side.

Think about it.
 
Everything you name is more a symptom of a culture of violence, not a cause. Violence is glorified in music and on television BECAUSE we are a culture of violence. Violence is used more often as a means BECAUSE we are a culture of violence.

The question is WHY are we a culture of violence.

To quote a favorite movie of mine:
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side.

Think about it.


The powers that be purposefully cultivate a culture of violence, because it reduces us to the level of animals, animals they are justified in putting in pens. When we are conditioned to see violence as a primary solution, or entertainment even, our higher level thinking is suppressed. Violence destroys social cohesion as well. The powers that be seek to destroy all lateral loyalties between individuals, so we will only have loyalty up the hierarchy.
 
You obviously have some reading comprehension problem, whereby, you read something I post, and it automatically translates into your brain as something absurd which you can argue against. I merely pointed out, since we decided to abandon God as a society, in government, in schools, in the culture as a whole, we have seen an increase in this sort of craziness. It's far more prevalent today than it was 60, 80, 100 years ago. I made the point that, if we are going to examine further gun control restrictions, we would be just as well off to examine our culture and how we've stripped God from society and promote violence in music and entertainment across the board. I happen to think that has a helluva lot more to do with this kind of insanity, than the lack of gun control.

You twisted what I said into some silly debate against "Dixie: Religious Nut who Wants to Force Children to be Christians!" I've not taken such a position, you transferred me there when you miscomprehended what I originally said, and we've been going in circles ever since. You've railed against religion, you've railed against Roy Moore, you've done everything short of erecting a pentagram and speaking in tongues to the Devil himself, while maintaining you are a wholesome God-fearing man, who is courageously standing up for the Constitution.... (which you have no clue on the foundation of.)

Now, what I say may seem very "politically incorrect" to you, it may go against the grain of your liberal anti-religious, anti-God agenda and propaganda, but the fact remains... before we decided that God had no place in our schools, when we still made the attempt to instill values and morality in our youth, when we were still a decent God-fearing society for the most part, we didn't have nuts running around Smalltown, Alabama, committing mass murder on innocent people! It just didn't happen much back then.

I purposely mischaracterized what you said and responded the way I did.

Dixie, since you can characterize what I said as anti-religion and being an atheist, I can post the same sort of over-blown info.
 
Everything you name is more a symptom of a culture of violence, not a cause. Violence is glorified in music and on television BECAUSE we are a culture of violence. Violence is used more often as a means BECAUSE we are a culture of violence.

The question is WHY are we a culture of violence.

To quote a favorite movie of mine:
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side.

Think about it.

Ultimately, it all leads to an abandonment of God. Many people simply freak out when they hear the mention of God! It automatically invokes an image of wacko religious fundamentalist creationists, who want to preach at people and cast judgment, while condemning them to hell. I guess this is a popular image because it is so easy to find unappealing. The fact is, humans who have no faith in something greater than self, will always lose their moral foundation and revert to the animals they once were.

To grasp an understanding of what I mean, you really have to examine the "creation" from the perspective of understanding I have about it. The Bible speaks of God creating the heaven's and the earth, light and dark, and then, the animals and plants, and finally, man and woman. This all supposedly happens within 6 days, and on the 7th, God rested. The first thing is, we don't really know how long a "God Day" is, it might be billions of years in "Human Days", we simply don't know this. Furthermore, we don't really know what is meant by "created" because the Bible doesn't describe much about that process.

After creating Adam and Eve, God tells them to "go forth and replenish the Earth." This is an important phrase... replenish the earth, means to re-populate it... re-build it... as if it were in existence in some state before. So this leads me to think, Adam and Eve were not the first humans on Earth, they were the first to be "created" by God. To be shaped in God's image, to be instilled with Godly attributes of forgiveness, love, compassion, etc. Before this time, all humans were Neanderthal, primitive, barbaric, animals. God enabled man to go forth and replenish the earth with humanity, modern man, the knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of his surroundings. We were created in his image, not duplicated from him, we are part primal animal, and part Godly creature. Therefore, within every man, is the instinctual primitive inclination to revert back to primal animal roots.

When man abandons God, he naturally reverts back to what he was before God created him in his image, a barbaric animal, with primitive instinct of an animal, no compassion, no love, no humanity. It is impossible for us to be anything else. It is only through God's creation of man, that we became civilized, and without it, we simply revert back to what we were before.

Step back for a moment and consider this... How many times in your life, have you heard one of your elders tell a story of when you were a child... something you did with your Uncle or Aunt, or something your Grandparent did for you when you were little? You didn't remember it, but you may have recalled it after they mentioned it. As time goes by, humans tend to forget things, memories are overwritten, and things become locked deep into our subconscious minds, we don't remember them, so we never speak of them to others. Generations pass, and important details escape, the next generation has less information than the one before. We learn new things, but forget the old things. This has happened for millions of years, and we have simply lost our past. What we are left with, are the vague recollections of what transpired in the beginning, stories and montages that have been told and retold, embellished and translated, and we have a very incomplete knowledge and understanding of the past. Nevertheless, it is somehow ingrained in every human, the inclination to worship something greater than self.

We are the stewards of the planet, we are the responsible species. No other creature is concerned with the environment, endangered species, global warming, etc. No other species is concerned with poverty, hunger, or war. No other species is compelled to look into the skies and attempt to spot near earth objects, or observe sun spots, etc. Only humans have this level of concern and sense of responsibility. We can study colonies of ants and realize, they are much more structured and complex in regimental organization than humans, we can observe the bees and see they have a much more sophisticated means of communication than humans, so we know that humans aren't necessarily the "most intelligent" of all living things. Yet, we are the species with the ability of cognitive thought, and we are ironically, the only species with the inclination to worship something greater than self. Curious, that!
 
Again, I do not think it is that simple. I am a devout Christian, and I do not like the way modern liberalism has made religion into a bad word in our country. It saddens me the way the 1st Amendment has been corrupted into subjugating free expression of religion in order to support a totalitarian interpretation of "make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

However, look at the ME. There are countries which not only allow, but REQUIRE strict adherence to their religious morality. Doesn't do much for the culture of violence there, does it? Looking backward into history, there are periods of time when nationalized Christianity was very similar in creating a culture of fear, hatred, and violence.

Again, I ask you to think about this progression:

FEAR leads to anger. Anger leads to hatred. Hatred leads to the Dark side. (ie: culture of violence.)

Think about it hard. Have you not noticed the past 30 years, our "beloved" federal government, led occasionally by one party, then the next, has CONSISTENTLY given each and every faction of people, each and every grouping of political philosophy, something/someone to fear? And where does fear end up?
 
Again, I do not think it is that simple. I am a devout Christian, and I do not like the way modern liberalism has made religion into a bad word in our country. It saddens me the way the 1st Amendment has been corrupted into subjugating free expression of religion in order to support a totalitarian interpretation of "make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

However, look at the ME. There are countries which not only allow, but REQUIRE strict adherence to their religious morality. Doesn't do much for the culture of violence there, does it? Looking backward into history, there are periods of time when nationalized Christianity was very similar in creating a culture of fear, hatred, and violence.

Again, I ask you to think about this progression:

FEAR leads to anger. Anger leads to hatred. Hatred leads to the Dark side. (ie: culture of violence.)

Think about it hard. Have you not noticed the past 30 years, our "beloved" federal government, led occasionally by one party, then the next, has CONSISTENTLY given each and every faction of people, each and every grouping of political philosophy, something/someone to fear? And where does fear end up?

I'm not disagreeing with your point, in fact, I think you bring up an interesting aspect for consideration. As for other more strict religious cultures, their specific religion teaches violence. I'm not saying we need to turn America into a Christian theocracy, that is a characterization unfairly attributed to my commentary by anti-religious people. You state that you are a Christian, and I can respect that, but I am not a Christian. I agree with some Christian philosophy, and I believe much of it is conducive with a healthy moral society. In other words, I don't "fear" Christianity, but I see that others in our society do. They fear it for different reasons, mostly because they lack a comprehensive understanding of it.

When society becomes "afraid" of Christianity, we tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. We seek to strip and remove anything associated with Christian beliefs from our societal structure, and in doing so, we also strip away moral foundations, compassion, forgiveness, love, humanity. What's left? Hate, violence, corruption, unethical behaviors. This breeds sociopaths, this breeds the kind of deplorable actions by the nut bags. Yet, we refuse to see the forest for the trees... we must continue to fight Christianity, when it's in fact, Christianity which has delivered us from evil in so many ways.
 
When society becomes "afraid" of Christianity, we tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. We seek to strip and remove anything associated with Christian beliefs from our societal structure, and in doing so, we also strip away moral foundations, compassion, forgiveness, love, humanity. What's left? Hate, violence, corruption, unethical behaviors. This breeds sociopaths, this breeds the kind of deplorable actions by the nut bags. Yet, we refuse to see the forest for the trees... we must continue to fight Christianity, when it's in fact, Christianity which has delivered us from evil in so many ways.
Fear of Christian fundamentalism, fear of establishing a Christian theocracy simply by allowing public school "holiday" plays to include the Christmas Story is most certainly ONE of the many fears (leading to anger, leading to hate, leading to "the dark side") promoted by a particular faction of American politics. Fear of the wealthy enslaving us all is another. Then from a different faction we get fear of socialism, fear of terrorism, fear of unconstitutional practices by the government (which actually comes from both sides, but for different reasons), etc. The thing is, there is SOME truth to the drives for all these fears. Unfettered supply-side driven capitalism will lead to a situation where the people are literally enslaved to a corporate infrastructure. There IS a genuine faction of atheists who desire to drive all expression of religion underground where they do not have to deal with it. It may be small, but they are very vocal, and are behind most of the successful lawsuits against expression of religion in public venues. There is a real reason to fear the violations of constitutional protections promoted by the Bush administration. There is a real reason to fear destruction of the 2nd amendment. There is a real reason to fear religious fundamentalist pushing their beliefs into legal authority. (Considering how many other portions of the Constitution are being violated on a daily basis, is the 1st amendment any less susceptible?) There is a real reason to fear international terrorism. When those genuine fears are exaggerated by political factions to gain a following, it makes for an unstable mixture. It has been long known that it is far easier to build a following (ie: political support) based on fear of a scape-goat target than it is to build a following based on any other factor - ESPECIALLY love, acceptance, tolerance, etc.

The fact is, fear DOES make people angry. (Fight or flight - the end product of a billion years of evolution, the way God made us, or a combination - you choose.) Anger, by necessity, needs a target. So angry people start focusing their anger on the perceived causes of their fear (which by manipulation of the political infrastructure further focuses on their political opponents). By targeting the source of fear/anger, we get hatred. So we end up with a whole culture full of hate for this, hate for that, hate for the other thing. And THAT leads to the desire to do violence (again, the fight or flight thingy) against the things we hate. Enter the culture of violence, spurred onward by violence in the media (who in reality are doing little more than catering to the desires of their customers). And then people wonder why some eventually snap to the pressure, and take out all the (deliberately) built up hatred on those around them.
 
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Good luck. are you saying christimas pageants lead to fear?
No, I am saying certain political factions deliberately inflated and used the fear of a theocratic state in order to make the claim that ALLOWING Christmas pageants in the public schools was promoting a state/national religion.
 
No, I am saying certain political factions deliberately inflated and used the fear of a theocratic state in order to make the claim that ALLOWING Christmas pageants in the public schools was promoting a state/national religion.

Not having Christmas pageants ...

That leads to a violent America ...

:cof1:
 
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Ahhh, but if you have not abandoned God, you have no reason to fear!
IF your faith is perfect..... Is yours?

I fear what the current administration/congress is going to do to attack the 2nd Amendment. Is that fear baseless?

God has His own reasons for doing things. He allowed the descendants of Abraham to live in slavery of Egypt for over 400 years - for His own reasons that I STILL do not understand. If it is His will that the United States fall apart into a totalitarian regime, thus enslaving my grandchildren, then that is His will and I will do my best to understand and accept His will. But I sure as hell do not WANT such a bleak future for my grandchildren, and do, indeed, fear its possibility.
 
IF your faith is perfect..... Is yours?

I fear what the current administration/congress is going to do to attack the 2nd Amendment. Is that fear baseless?

God has His own reasons for doing things. He allowed the descendants of Abraham to live in slavery of Egypt for over 400 years - for His own reasons that I STILL do not understand. If it is His will that the United States fall apart into a totalitarian regime, thus enslaving my grandchildren, then that is His will and I will do my best to understand and accept His will. But I sure as hell do not WANT such a bleak future for my grandchildren, and do, indeed, fear its possibility.

:lmao:

God and Guns ..

:)

.. entertaining as hell
 
Laugh all you want, but that is what those who got them removed from public schools would have you believe. (ie: Christian theocracy devolving into the 2nd Inquisition....)

That is the most mindboggling ignorant ass theory I think I've ever heard in life.

Teach your religious nonsense AT HOME and IN THE CHURCH to YOUR OWN CHILDREN .. not mine.

School is not a forum for your non-factual superstitions.
 
IF your faith is perfect..... Is yours?

I fear what the current administration/congress is going to do to attack the 2nd Amendment. Is that fear baseless?

God has His own reasons for doing things. He allowed the descendants of Abraham to live in slavery of Egypt for over 400 years - for His own reasons that I STILL do not understand. If it is His will that the United States fall apart into a totalitarian regime, thus enslaving my grandchildren, then that is His will and I will do my best to understand and accept His will. But I sure as hell do not WANT such a bleak future for my grandchildren, and do, indeed, fear its possibility.

Well I happen to have a great deal of faith in my faith. One thing I know is, God's will shall be done, and there ain't a whole lot we can do about that. I don't "fear" the current administration, I just don't like them or support their policies. God allows all kinds of things I don't like, or don't understand, or don't comprehend why... it's not for me to decide! My job is to live by the standards He has set for me, and not cast judgment on others. That last part is the most difficult for me, I struggle with it sometimes. Still, I believe God has a reason for why everyone behaves or does the things they do. Perhaps the past millennium or so, has been an exercise to "teach" us that we are inadequate to live without God. He allows us to tear Him down, mock Him, remove him from the public realm, forsake Him completely, and then we collapse as a society... happens over and over again, and in our ignorance and arrogance, we just never seem to learn the lesson being taught. Our lives are just a blink of the eye to God, and we are powerless to "change the world" without His blessing.
 
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