An Interesting Lunch

Damocles said:
Nobody has stopped the negotiations. In fact, if the US were directly involved they would be more likely to fail. It is better to have the US as seen to be in opposition in this case.

Allowing the press and a few diners to label the President of Iran as a "madman" simply isn't a large enough deal to say we have sidetracked and stopped negotiations. It is unrealistic to expect our government to crack down on those so labeling this man...
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In fact, if the US were directly involved they would be more likely to fail.

This I agree with. Bush and Condi are utter failures, and completely discredited.

We would need somebody like a Colin Powell, and James Baker, or a Richard Holbroke. Somebody tough and competent.

Hell, even Ronald Reagan has the gravitas and credibility to sit down for tough face to face negotiations with the evil empire.
 
Cypress said:
In fact, if the US were directly involved they would be more likely to fail.

This I agree with. Bush and Condi are utter failures, and completely discredited.

We would need somebody like a Colin Powell, and James Baker, or a Richard Holbroke. Somebody tough and competent.

Hell, even Ronald Reagan has the gravitas and credibility to sit down for tough face to face negotiations with the evil empire.
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It wouldn't matter. Iran cannot be seen as kneeling to the US. Having the US as other than a background advisory role would be detrimental to talks there regardless of who is the leader.
 
Damocles said:
It wouldn't matter. Iran cannot be seen as kneeling to the US. Having the US as other than a background advisory role would be detrimental to talks there regardless of who is the leader.
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Even Ronald Reagan was aware of secret and backdoor diplomatic meetings. No one says, there has to be a Reagan-Gorbachevv Reykyavik conference,

Trusted and competent Republican statesmen like Richard Luger and Chuck Hagel are saying we need to talk to Iran.
 
Cypress said:
Even Ronald Reagan was aware of secret and backdoor diplomatic meetings. No one says, there has to be a Reagan-Gorbachevv Reykyavik conference,

Trusted and competent Republican statesmen like Richard Luger and Chuck Hagel are saying we need to talk to Iran.
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That is my point. The idea that they aren't doing that is simply rhetoric. The idea that some other group would be any more successful is wishful thinking. We may as well use the rubbing lamp theory of government because we aren't working within the framework of reality.
 
Damocles said:
Still not an answer to the question I actually asked. Once again the name gets in the way and helps to erect a strawman. Is this man dealing in good faith, or is it much like Hitler, it doesn't matter what we do he will do what he wants regardless?

Basically, Hitler is getting in the way. The only reason I mentioned him is because he was specifically mentioned in the post I was replying to...
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How can we know that Damo? How can anyone possibly do anything other than make, what would be a very dubious claim, that they do know? The only way to find out is to try and talk to him. In what history of diplomacy, do the principals decide to speak only to their friends? This is pure lunacy.

And fyi, a good part of the world does not believe that bush is ever dealing in "good faith", most especially during the recent Israeli/Lebanon debacle. I'm one of them. But if you asked me "is bush dealing in good faith" all I could do is tell you that I do not believe he is. But I could not say that I know, or that I could prove it. I would tell you ,watch his actions, for they will speak louder than his words. And I would tell anyone to do the same with the President of Iran. His words are for his countrymen oftimes, and at other times, for the world stage. Watch instead what he does, and most especially, through back channels.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Bush isn't crazy either. There is all that talk about talking to God. I don't think Bush believes that but he knows that some of his supporters are crazy. And as we know crazy people get to vote too.
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Your posts on this thread have been very reasoned, and interesting. I wanted to say that first, because we always seem to have misunderstandings. Ok, now...

In fact, you don't know that though. It would be more accurate to say that you "hope" this to be the case. But you can't know that he doesn't mean it, that he doesn''t believe it. The idea that he does believe it, is frightening, isn't it? So many of us can dismiss it with, oh he's just playing to the freaks in his own base. But we don't know. We can't. We only hope.
 
Darla said:
Your posts on this thread have been very reasoned, and interesting. I wanted to say that first, because we always seem to have misunderstandings. Ok, now...

In fact, you don't know that though. It would be more accurate to say that you "hope" this to be the case. But you can't know that he doesn't mean it, that he doesn''t believe it. The idea that he does believe it, is frightening, isn't it? So many of us can dismiss it with, oh he's just playing to the freaks in his own base. But we don't know. We can't. We only hope.
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Well, you may have a point on him being crazy - but the fact is, the fvcker is definitely stupid. I've got 6 years of stupidity and idiotic decisions backing me up.
 
Darla said:
How can we know that Damo? How can anyone possibly do anything other than make, what would be a very dubious claim, that they do know? The only way to find out is to try and talk to him. In what history of diplomacy, do the principals decide to speak only to their friends? This is pure lunacy.
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*sigh* We are talking to him. Both through international groups and behind the scenes more directly. I thought I made this clear. Iran cannot be seen to kneel to the US, therefore our open participation would cause the talks to fall through. It is disingenuous to assume only the blunt up front is what is happening, especially in international politics.

And fyi, a good part of the world does not believe that bush is ever dealing in "good faith", most especially during the recent Israeli/Lebanon debacle. I'm one of them. But if you asked me "is bush dealing in good faith" all I could do is tell you that I do not believe he is. But I could not say that I know, or that I could prove it. I would tell you ,watch his actions, for they will speak louder than his words. And I would tell anyone to do the same with the President of Iran. His words are for his countrymen oftimes, and at other times, for the world stage. Watch instead what he does, and most especially, through back channels.
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And FYI, it isn't just Bush that they are talking with. This assumes that it is the US and Iran and nobody else. (Of course France and their "promise" of 2000 notwithstanding the rest of the world is not considered to be bargaining in bad faith)...

This has been such a pain to get y'all to admit.

First you throw Hitler under the bus, I mention him in a direct answer to a post in which his name was used... Then for at least six posts thereafter everybody is assuming it was MY analogy. Rubbish...

Almost every argument made by the left in this thread is constructed of straw and assumption tied together with stereotype and innuendo and dressed in "invisible" cloth. They aren't even well-hidden strawmen with poor construction...

Throw in a Hitler analogy, then when I ask a QUESTION assume my opinion and construct a strawman, throw an accellerant on (hitler again) and assume that *whoosh* it'll all light up and I'll start to cry while trying to put it out... Then when it is pointed out that it wasn't my analogy and I hadn't yet provided an opinion, assume again and throw more accelerant on a non-existant fire...

Somebody forgot their lighter.
 
I didn't say anything about Hitler, did I? If I did, I've forgotten it already. Did I forget it already, or are you trying to gaslight me? Which is not a cool thing to do to a girl with a bad memory.

I think you are assuming we are talking to him, when all indications coming out of Condi are that we will not until certain criteria are met, and these are criteria that are not going to be met. So if there are some low-level talks going on, and I do not discount that possibility, they are meaningless.
 
LadyT said:
Yes, I'm an anti-semite, because I acknowledge that Hamas' ceasefire and Hezbollah's subsequent involvement stemmed from an an actual event that a lot of commentators on the mideast violence tend to leave out..

Here's a free history lesson you jack@$$:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

"The explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last Friday was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said Tuesday. "

"However, in Gaza, the group Human Rights Watch said the evidence it has been able to gather suggests that a 155 mm artillery shell, like the type used by the Israeli military, was responsible."

"The deaths of seven people -- all members of a Palestinian family having a beach picnic -- prompted the military wing of Hamas to resume rocket strikes against Israel after a hiatus of more than a year."

__________________________________-

Furthermore, my displeasure in a nations actions has nothing to do with my viewpoints on religion nor does it insinuate in ANY way shape or form that I hate anyone based on said religion. Its idiots like you that are making honest and rational discourse obsolete in this country.
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Right, like this:



:(
 
LadyT said:
Yes, I'm an anti-semite, because I acknowledge that Hamas' ceasefire and Hezbollah's subsequent involvement stemmed from an an actual event that a lot of commentators on the mideast violence tend to leave out..

Here's a free history lesson you jack@$$:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

"The explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last Friday was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said Tuesday. "

"However, in Gaza, the group Human Rights Watch said the evidence it has been able to gather suggests that a 155 mm artillery shell, like the type used by the Israeli military, was responsible."

"The deaths of seven people -- all members of a Palestinian family having a beach picnic -- prompted the military wing of Hamas to resume rocket strikes against Israel after a hiatus of more than a year."

__________________________________-

Furthermore, my displeasure in a nations actions has nothing to do with my viewpoints on religion nor does it insinuate in ANY way shape or form that I hate anyone based on said religion. Its idiots like you that are making honest and rational discourse obsolete in this country.
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Right, like this:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21131&only


:(
 
Darla said:
I didn't say anything about Hitler, did I? If I did, I've forgotten it already. Did I forget it already, or are you trying to gaslight me? Which is not a cool thing to do to a girl with a bad memory.

I think you are assuming we are talking to him, when all indications coming out of Condi are that we will not until certain criteria are met, and these are criteria that are not going to be met. So if there are some low-level talks going on, and I do not discount that possibility, they are meaningless.
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I was describing the whole of the experience in the thread, not just from you. Yours was just another. So far the only answer I got to my question was "How could we know?" and then a bunch of assumption and foolishness. I have yet to offer what I believe about the person.

All I have stated is, first of all, in a land with Freedom of the Press you cannot have the government punishing the press for using such a word, and the whole thread was started by some guy at a table... Really, this isn't international politics, it's a dinner table!

Anyway, I have tried again and again to get the answer to my question and all I have gotten was questions and assumptions and half naked strawmen doused in water...
 
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