Answer to a failing economy: FAIR TAX!

I've been listening to Bortz talk about the fair tax lately, because my local station took Laura Ingraham off and put Bortz in her place... I don't really like Bortz too much, he is a pinhead most of the time... but he i sa big fan of the Fair Tax, and that's pretty much what he stays on most of the time.

He got me to thinking about it, and I really do think it could benefit our struggling economy tremendously. Here's how it would work...

Currently, our tax system is production-based, it relies on people working, producing good and services, the more you work, the more money you make, the more tax you pay. This system inherently causes a demotivated base of production, people simply aren't motivated to work more when they know half of what they make will go to pay the tax man. The Fair Tax system is consumer-based, it relies on people spending their money, buying goods and services. The more we buy and spend, the more tax revenue we generate. The same principles of de-motivation don't apply, because people reap a tangible benefit from spending, something they can hold in their hand, something to show for the cash they spent. Plus, there is no mandate to spend, you are free to not spend if you don't want to, but you have to work, you have to produce, you have no choice in that matter.

Fair Tax would be a national sales tax, and estimates are, it would need to be about 23% to cover current expenditures of the Federal budget. This means, everything consumable would increase in price by 23%... but... it wouldn't stay there, because of competition and free enterprise. The same thing that makes a clothing store sell suits for $199.99 would still be in play, competition would still drive consumer pricing, Fast food outlets discovered that the average consumer will spend $5 for a complete meal, and this wouldn't change, so the businesses would simply adjust to the 23% increase and absorb the extra in their consumer pricing of goods and services. Things would go up a little, but not 23%, because someone would always be trying to tap into the business and find a way to lure customers to their product or service, even if it meant a little less profit.

Now here is the huge upside to this system. No income tax, no corporate tax, no capital gains tax! You would immediately be bringing home more on your paycheck, corporations would immediately be making more profit because of less corporate tax, and the incentive to make money is restored. Foreign business would flock to America, where there was no corporate or cap gains taxation, and jobs would spring up by the hundreds of thousands. Investors and entrepreneurs would be enthusiastic about spending money to make more money, without the burden of taxation, investment in new ventures would be wide open. Unemployment would drop to near zero, and then we would see something amazing begin to happen with regard to personal incomes and salaries, the jobs in high demand would be paying much more to get qualified people, and average household incomes would rise dramatically as companies begged for new employees, offering all kinds of incentives and signing bonuses.

Of course, there will be some bleeding heart liberals who will cry... but what about the low income people who can't afford this extra sales tax? Well, the Fair Tax plan Bortz is talking about, takes this into consideration, and here is the idea. We calculate how much money it takes to survive, to live a modest lifestyle with the basic necessities of life, housing, food, clothing, medical, etc. Each year, we cut a check to low income families for 23% of that amount. Let's say we establish the "poverty line" amount at $20k... each year, the low income family would get a check for $4,600.00 to offset the sales tax on consumer goods. So those who pay no tax now, would still pay no tax under the Fair Tax system.

With this plan, we would completely eliminate the IRS, as well as all the tax cheats and tax fraud currently happening in America. People who currently earn illegal incomes and pay no tax, would no longer be able to skate the system, they would automatically be contributing to the system whenever they buy anything. There is literally no telling how much extra tax revenue this might generate, and the great thing about it is, the sky would be the limit in terms of how much money could be generated, because it is based on consumerism instead of production.

I don't agree with Bortz on a lot of stuff, but I think he's right on with this idea!
 
No. The fair tax would have no impact economically besides shifting tax burden even more to the detriment of the middle class. The middle class has been fucked enough by Republican tax cuts to the rich.
 
so the businesses would simply adjust to the 23% increase and absorb the extra in their consumer pricing of goods and services.

Wow. Dixie actually argues that Businesses are just going to absorb the 23%. Astounding.

Where do you think they'd get that 23%? Out of thin air? More likely, from the middle classes paycheck. On one end, middle class paychecks would be cut to deal with the extra costs, and on the other end prices for middle class customers would be raised. Why is it that the only solutions Republicans can come up with is worst-of-all-worlds "solutions"?
 
Each year, we cut a check to low income families for 23% of that amount. Let's say we establish the "poverty line" amount at $20k... each year, the low income family would get a check for $4,600.00 to offset the sales tax on consumer goods. So those who pay no tax now, would still pay no tax under the Fair Tax system.

Great, dix. The poor pay less. The rich pay much, much, much, much less. It takes in the same amount of money. What part of the system is being squeezed here?
 
Wow. Dixie actually argues that Businesses are just going to absorb the 23%. Astounding.

Where do you think they'd get that 23%? Out of thin air? More likely, from the middle classes paycheck. On one end, middle class paychecks would be cut to deal with the extra costs, and on the other end prices for middle class customers would be raised. Why is it that the only solutions Republicans can come up with is worst-of-all-worlds "solutions"?

???????

I don't get where you think they can cut pay? There will be much MORE business, obviously! How could there NOT be? Every foreign corporation in the WORLD would be coming HERE because NO TAX! Hundreds of new companies would be popping up in every major city, and they would need workers to fill the positions. Hundreds of thousands of NEW jobs... jobs that currently don't exist! When we reach levels of FULL employment in a few years, what are they going to do? They're still flocking into America to open new facilities, and they have no one to fill the job! Put on your thinking cap a minute and concentrate... I'll tell you what they will do, offer HIGHER PAY!

You've just fired off a flurry of knee-jerk posts to trash Republicans, and this isn't even something Republicans are advocating at this time! Neil Bortz is a LIBERTARIAN! Dumb ass!
 
No. The fair tax would have no impact economically besides shifting tax burden even more to the detriment of the middle class. The middle class has been fucked enough by Republican tax cuts to the rich.

See, that's just it... The Fair Tax ENDS this stupid shit about "tax cuts for the rich" because there are no more income taxes or corporate taxes or capital gains taxes, they don't exist anymore! Is THAT why you are opposed? It doesn't allow you to play on class envy and turn people against the wealthy because they are jealous? I think we could live without that benefit, but thanks for your concern.
 
Wow. Dixie actually argues that Businesses are just going to absorb the 23%. Astounding.

They won't absorb it completely, I said that. Keep in mind, they aren't paying the corporate tax anymore, so their profits are considerably higher and they can afford to adjust their prices down, and competition in the FREE MARKET would force them to do that to compete. I realize you are a Socialist Communist and that idea really eludes you, but that's how Capitalism works all the time.
 
They won't absorb it completely, I said that. Keep in mind, they aren't paying the corporate tax anymore, so their profits are considerably higher and they can afford to adjust their prices down, and competition in the FREE MARKET would force them to do that to compete. I realize you are a Socialist Communist and that idea really eludes you, but that's how Capitalism works all the time.

The price of the average goods and service in the US is already 22% to 25% taxes that the businesses and manufacturers have been charged.

Several years ago, when an airline tax was set to expire and Congress had neglected to reinstate it, the cost of tickets on two airlines dropped by the amount of that tax within hours of its expiration. Those two airlines had seen it as a way to lower their prices and still have the same profit margins. The rest of the airlines, in order to compete, did the same.
 
I hate saying he's right too. That said the libtards would club baby seals on the streets of DC before they sign on.
 
I've been listening to Bortz talk about the fair tax lately, because my local station took Laura Ingraham off and put Bortz in her place... I don't really like Bortz too much, he is a pinhead most of the time... but he i sa big fan of the Fair Tax, and that's pretty much what he stays on most of the time.

He got me to thinking about it, and I really do think it could benefit our struggling economy tremendously. Here's how it would work...

While it would be an improvement compared to our current tax system, the fair tax is not likely to help the economy. It is a set up for becoming just as corrupt as our current system. It is also regressive.

Currently, our tax system is production-based, it relies on people working, producing good and services, the more you work, the more money you make, the more tax you pay. This system inherently causes a demotivated base of production, people simply aren't motivated to work more when they know half of what they make will go to pay the tax man. The Fair Tax system is consumer-based, it relies on people spending their money, buying goods and services. The more we buy and spend, the more tax revenue we generate. The same principles of de-motivation don't apply, because people reap a tangible benefit from spending, something they can hold in their hand, something to show for the cash they spent. Plus, there is no mandate to spend, you are free to not spend if you don't want to, but you have to work, you have to produce, you have no choice in that matter.

Valid points. But what happens to the economy if we go into a recession and people stop spending. Where does the government gain revenue?

Fair Tax would be a national sales tax, and estimates are, it would need to be about 23% to cover current expenditures of the Federal budget. This means, everything consumable would increase in price by 23%... but... it wouldn't stay there, because of competition and free enterprise. The same thing that makes a clothing store sell suits for $199.99 would still be in play, competition would still drive consumer pricing, Fast food outlets discovered that the average consumer will spend $5 for a complete meal, and this wouldn't change, so the businesses would simply adjust to the 23% increase and absorb the extra in their consumer pricing of goods and services. Things would go up a little, but not 23%, because someone would always be trying to tap into the business and find a way to lure customers to their product or service, even if it meant a little less profit.

This is faulty logic. People would not necessarily be fixed on the same price levels as their purchasing power would increase. Companies would also not absorb the entire hit of 23%. That is simply absurd. Most companies do not have a profit margin of 23%. While the companies MIGHT benefit from the lack of corporate taxes, they are not going to take the full hit. They are still going to be paying the 'fair tax' on the goods/services they use to operate.

Now here is the huge upside to this system. No income tax, no corporate tax, no capital gains tax! You would immediately be bringing home more on your paycheck, corporations would immediately be making more profit because of less corporate tax, and the incentive to make money is restored. Foreign business would flock to America, where there was no corporate or cap gains taxation, and jobs would spring up by the hundreds of thousands. Investors and entrepreneurs would be enthusiastic about spending money to make more money, without the burden of taxation, investment in new ventures would be wide open. Unemployment would drop to near zero, and then we would see something amazing begin to happen with regard to personal incomes and salaries, the jobs in high demand would be paying much more to get qualified people, and average household incomes would rise dramatically as companies begged for new employees, offering all kinds of incentives and signing bonuses.

While people would have the flexibility to spend or not spend and thus could potentially increase their net worth, companies do not have the same luxury. The fair tax would be applied to the goods and services they use (as I mentioned above). The rest is simply fantasy.


Of course, there will be some bleeding heart liberals who will cry... but what about the low income people who can't afford this extra sales tax? Well, the Fair Tax plan Bortz is talking about, takes this into consideration, and here is the idea. We calculate how much money it takes to survive, to live a modest lifestyle with the basic necessities of life, housing, food, clothing, medical, etc. Each year, we cut a check to low income families for 23% of that amount. Let's say we establish the "poverty line" amount at $20k... each year, the low income family would get a check for $4,600.00 to offset the sales tax on consumer goods. So those who pay no tax now, would still pay no tax under the Fair Tax system.

So if the wealthy choose not to spend... just where exactly is the government going to get the money to give to the poor? The bulk of the assets for the wealthy would be invested. If they are not paying cap gains taxes or taxes on dividends/interest, then where is the government going to get their funds?

With this plan, we would completely eliminate the IRS, as well as all the tax cheats and tax fraud currently happening in America. People who currently earn illegal incomes and pay no tax, would no longer be able to skate the system, they would automatically be contributing to the system whenever they buy anything. There is literally no telling how much extra tax revenue this might generate, and the great thing about it is, the sky would be the limit in terms of how much money could be generated, because it is based on consumerism instead of production.

This is true... provided an illegal black market doesn't crop up. Of course we all know those individuals who are earning illegal incomes now wouldn't create an illegal enterprise.

I don't agree with Bortz on a lot of stuff, but I think he's right on with this idea!

I would disagree. The fair tax system is ripe for corruption and would most likely result in black markets for most goods.

The true 'fair tax' system would be a flat tax with a high standard deduction.
 
Currently, our tax system is production-based, it relies on people working, producing good and services, the more you work, the more money you make, the more tax you pay. This system inherently causes a demotivated base of production, people simply aren't motivated to work more when they know half of what they make will go to pay the tax man. The Fair Tax system is consumer-based, it relies on people spending their money, buying goods and services. The more we buy and spend, the more tax revenue we generate. The same principles of de-motivation don't apply, because people reap a tangible benefit from spending, something they can hold in their hand, something to show for the cash they spent. Plus, there is no mandate to spend, you are free to not spend if you don't want to, but you have to work, you have to produce, you have no choice in that matter.

This point is incorrect. People are still motivated to earn more because of the benefit of the extra income. They reap a tangible benefit in the extra cash they have to spend. An income tax only discourages earning that extra dollar if it is highly progressive. If it is flat then the motivation to earn dollar one would be the same as it is to earn dollar one million and one.
 
See, that's just it... The Fair Tax ENDS this stupid shit about "tax cuts for the rich" because there are no more income taxes or corporate taxes or capital gains taxes, they don't exist anymore! Is THAT why you are opposed? It doesn't allow you to play on class envy and turn people against the wealthy because they are jealous? I think we could live without that benefit, but thanks for your concern.

the 'fair tax' is a MASSIVE tax cut for the rich dixie.
 
I would prefer to tax corporations based on wealth or market value. This would have several impacts all of them, seemingly, beneficial.

It would be difficult to cheat, because if the corporation understates its value then someone could buy them at the understated value.

Corporations would also be discouraged from grossly overstating the value of junk assets as that would increase their tax liability.

Corporations would be encouraged to only grow to the point where the economy of scale created an actual market advantage or greater productivity. Our current system encourages them to just keep growing as dividends are taxed twice while income that increases owner's/stockholder's equity is taxed only once.
 
No. The fair tax will nail the middle and lower classes like usual. Rich people will be flying shit on their own helicopters or getting their stuff from wholesalers in big lots.

We need protectionism to save the american standard of living. Globalization is a collectivist mentality designed to bring the standard of living down for richer countries, based on the "we deserve it" meme.

Liberals think we deserve to be destroyed because we're predominantly white. Conservatives think we deserve to be destroyed because we're all not "go getters" like themselves who believe in human slavery.
 
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