Are you for or against the Obama middle class tax cuts?

[Onceler]

That's ridiculous by pretty much any measure. What we're talking about in this whole debate over which, if any, tax cuts to re-implement is the top marginal tax rate. Here's a chart of the highest marginal tax rate from 1920 to the present, including the projected increase:

Taxed to oblivion. That's hilarious.

The fact that top income rates used to be MORE punitively taxed is meaningless to me.

I'll never get the attitude that those in the higher brackets can pick up the lion's share of the tab on stuff like healthcare, because hey, they've got plenty already. By & large, most have worked incredibly hard to get there.

Tax rates that approach 40% seem insane to me. You can also tack on local taxes, sales taxes & other fees, and get a lot of folks closer to the 45-50% range. Half of someone's income? Completely unacceptable.

I wouldn't find it so offensive if there was any talk whatsoever, by either party, of any kind of meaningful deficit reduction - slashing the military, overhauling/privatizing SS, eliminating bureacracy. But there is none of that - not even talk, much less commitment.

It's BS - the whole thing, and it is way too accepted as just the cost of being an American. We can do a hell of a lot better, and suggestions that we can shouldn't be met with ridicule.

 

[Bonestorm]

The fact that top income rates used to be MORE punitively taxed is meaningless to me.

I'll never get the attitude that those in the higher brackets can pick up the lion's share of the tab on stuff like healthcare, because hey, they've got plenty already. By & large, most have worked incredibly hard to get there.

Tax rates that approach 40% seem insane to me. You can also tack on local taxes, sales taxes & other fees, and get a lot of folks closer to the 45-50% range. Half of someone's income? Completely unacceptable.

I wouldn't find it so offensive if there was any talk whatsoever, by either party, of any kind of meaningful deficit reduction - slashing the military, overhauling/privatizing SS, eliminating bureacracy. But there is none of that - not even talk, much less commitment.

It's BS - the whole thing, and it is way too accepted as just the cost of being an American. We can do a hell of a lot better, and suggestions that we can shouldn't be met with ridicule.

We aren't taxed to oblivion. It's silly to claim that we are.

 

[Onceler]

I hadn't seen this post until Nigel brought it to the forefront. You better watch it Lorax, you and me are going get kicked out of the party.

Yeah, I know. If it wasn't for the social issues & some dubious leadership choices, I would have probably voted Republican more in my life. In the past decade, they haven't even really been the party of fiscal responsibility anymore.

I consider myself basically party-less these days. I've become very disillusioned in general.

 

[cawacko]

The fact that top income rates used to be MORE punitively taxed is meaningless to me.

I'll never get the attitude that those in the higher brackets can pick up the lion's share of the tab on stuff like healthcare, because hey, they've got plenty already. By & large, most have worked incredibly hard to get there.

Tax rates that approach 40% seem insane to me. You can also tack on local taxes, sales taxes & other fees, and get a lot of folks closer to the 45-50% range. Half of someone's income? Completely unacceptable.

I wouldn't find it so offensive if there was any talk whatsoever, by either party, of any kind of meaningful deficit reduction - slashing the military, overhauling/privatizing SS, eliminating bureacracy. But there is none of that - not even talk, much less commitment.

It's BS - the whole thing, and it is way too accepted as just the cost of being an American. We can do a hell of a lot better, and suggestions that we can shouldn't be met with ridicule.

I'm with you on all of that but especially that last paragraph. That last paragraph is spot on.

 

[Phantasmal]

Yeah, I know. If it wasn't for the social issues & some dubious leadership choices, I would have probably voted Republican more in my life. In the past decade, they haven't even really been the party of fiscal responsibility anymore.

I consider myself basically party-less these days. I've become very disillusioned in general.

This is the same apathy I am feeling and I just try to find the person that is more qualified than the others to cause the least amount of damage, but I am often out voted where I live.

 

[Phantasmal]

I'm with you on all of that but especially that last paragraph. That last paragraph is spot on.

Why if so many of us feel this way do we end up with the type of government that we have?

I believe we all believe in reduction of spending and eliminating bullshit, why can't we get together on these issues? Is it all in the packaging that is done? It is frustrating.

 

[Good Luck]

No, it doesn't mean that. A business owner is not going to hire someone unless that person is "self-supporting", meaning bringing in sufficient revenue to cover his/her salary and benefits. The tax is levied on the profit, after all the employee expenses have been met, so taxes are not a primary consideration.

True, they are not a PRIMARY consideration. They are, however, a consideration, and not an insignificant one. Taxes affect a business' bottom line. That in turn affect how much a business is able to expand its operations. taxes also affect individuals, and how much they have to spend. If a tax increase is anticipated, then businesses do not look at that as only how it affects their bottom line, but also the economy as a whole. A large percentage of small businesses cater to other businesses, such as a typical auto parts distributor will have far more small businesses in the form of private mechanics than they will have individual customers. Private contractors hire out to home builders, etc. When total buying power is diminished due to higher taxes, businesses hold off on hiring - NOT because taxes affect the cost of hiring another employee, but because the total effect on the economy in total buying power affects the probability there will be enough additional business to justify hiring that extra employee.

Yes, it IS a cost v benefit equation, but that equation is more involved than simply "this employee will generate X times their salary". The ability for the new employee to bring in more value than they cost is dependent on other factors INCLUDING TAXES.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Banks and other credit agency will still hire walk ins. I see it mostly in the job sections where they require a college degree, like drafting, and my son was saying the same thing, how do I get experience if they won't hire me?

You do what I did in my field. You take a shit job with the same company and pay your dues. My first job in the environmental field (and I did have a degree in Biology at the time) was literally shovelling shit as a utility worker. It was 3 years before I did anything more then manual labor (though by then I was a shift supervisor). It was humbling and hard work but I learned a lot that was of value.

 

[Good Luck]

Why if so many of us feel this way do we end up with the type of government that we have?

Because with a few exceptions here and there, the party national committees are the ones who tell us who we have available for elections. And the national committees are about party power, not what is good for the nation or the People.

 

[Good Luck]

You do what I did in my field. You take a shit job with the same company and pay your dues. My first job in the environmental field (and I did have a degree in Biology at the time) was literally shovelling shit as a utility worker. It was 3 years before I did anything more then manual labor (though by then I was a shift supervisor). It was humbling and hard work but I learned a lot that was of value.

Exactly right. The current seeming (or is it very real?) expectation of people to come straight out of school (be it HS, trade, CC or U, certificate of training through Doctorate) and jump into their career making top wages is unrealistic at best.

How many kids these days work themselves through college? How many even work while in college, let alone while in HS? My brother got where he is by working drudge for his company while still in HS, and continued to work PT and summers while getting is degree. By the time he has his masters, he also had a total of 12 years with the company. And THAt is what got him his management position, not just his sheepskin.

We need to get back to TANSTAAFL. Want to get to the top, gotta be willing to step on that bottom rung first.

 

[cawacko]

Because with a few exceptions here and there, the party national committees are the ones who tell us who we have available for elections. And the national committees are about party power, not what is good for the nation or the People.

Froggie (or Rana) this is about exactly what I was going to say and it's a really frustrating answer because it doesn't lend itself to much hope for change.

Look at Christine O'Donnell. Even if you don't care for her look at how some of the top Republicans are treating her. The head of the Delaware GOP won't even say her name publically. Because she's not the party's selected 'horse' some are treating her as if she's a Democrat.

I like to see things through a glass half full but on this issue it is really really challenging.

 

[Phantasmal]

You do what I did in my field. You take a shit job with the same company and pay your dues. My first job in the environmental field (and I did have a degree in Biology at the time) was literally shovelling shit as a utility worker. It was 3 years before I did anything more then manual labor (though by then I was a shift supervisor). It was humbling and hard work but I learned a lot that was of value.

My oldest has taken something in another field to pay bills and wait for a job opening, in Colorado that is when someone dies, almost. I just grossed myself out, now I am seeing vultures.

The other son decided to go into an entirely different line of work, that happens, too. I think he made the right choice.

 

[Phantasmal]

My oldest has taken something in another field to pay bills and wait for a job opening, in Colorado that is when someone dies, almost. I just grossed myself out, now I am seeing vultures.

The other son decided to go into an entirely different line of work, that happens, too. I think he made the right choice.

My daughter has decided to delay her management advancement to help her current boss through the tough times. I was very proud of her for her decision. I think it will be s decision that will benefit her in the long run. I know her boss is very grateful.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

To me, taxes has become the kind of issue for the left that environmentalism has become for the right.

On the latter, even many reasonable righties oppose common sense green measures as a knee-jerk; it's just seen as a "leftie" cause, and they don't want any part of it. In some ways, they have helped to define the GOP as being somewhat anti-planet.

By the same token, those on the left have heard for so long that the the right is "anti-tax," they almost feel like they're SUPPOSED to be the party/side of higher taxes.

It's madness. I know I'll get lambasted for this, but anyone who doesn't think we're way overtaxed, and who thinks that the tax climate for American business is good & competitive, is just not thinking in the here & now. We're pretty much taxed to oblivion, and our gov't spends too much.

I don't think that's really a fair assessment. What is aggravating is that even though our taxation system is at historically low levels for the wealthy and is becoming more and more regressive while at the same time income disparities are becoming larger and larger we here the same old lame shit from those of the far right.

We have a budget deficit, how do we fix it? "Tax cuts for the wealthy"
We are in a recession, how do we stimulate the economy? "Tax cuts for the wealthy"
Unemployment is high, how to we stimulate jobs growth? "Tax cuts for the wealthy"
We have a huge trade deficit, how do we balance it? "tax cuts for the wealthy"
Aunt Petunia has inflammed hemaroids, how do we cure them? "tax cuts for the wealthy"

It's become a brain dead religious mantra from the right, particularly in the light of the evidence from nearly 30 years of regressive tax cuts for higher income Americans that the tax cuts have not accomplished what they have claimed they would. What they have done is created a huge income disparity between the mega wealthy and the working classes who struggle to maintain a middle class life style and combined with the grossly irresponsible military spending, have created a vast amount of public debt.

Now I'm no partisan democrat but between the blatant economic class warfare of the right wing combined with it's alliance to brain dead reactionary social conservatives I'm not only convinced that the Republican party is incapable of governing affectively but does so dangerously.

Now that doesn't mean I'm giving welfare state liberals of the Demoractic party a pass. Fuck them, they need to get their hands out of my pockets.

But that doesn't change the fact at how appalled I am at the cancer that is destroying the Republican party.

 

[klaatu]

Lets have another round of debating whether a 10 year old Tax schedule is a Tax cut if extended or a tax hike if rolled back to the schedule from 11 years ago ...

Hmmm

Also... maybe someone can define Middle Class for me ... just what is a Middle Class Tax Cut .... is it making more than a certain amount and less than another amount? If so...does this mean that the under group gets rolled back to the schedule from 11 years ago?

How about we do the sane thing.... DONT EFFIN RAISE TAXES DURING A NEAR DEPRESSION!!!!

 

[Phantasmal]

Lets have another round of debating whether a 10 year old Tax schedule is a Tax cut if extended or a tax hike if rolled back to the schedule from 11 years ago ...

Hmmm

Also... maybe someone can define Middle Class for me ... just what is a Middle Class Tax Cut .... is it making more than a certain amount and less than another amount? If so...does this mean that the under group gets rolled back to the schedule from 11 years ago?

How about we do the sane thing.... DONT EFFIN RAISE TAXES DURING A NEAR DEPRESSION!!!!

I don't think the rich are having a depression, the stock market is performing, somewhat...so I guess you would have to define depression and who is depressed, too.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The fact that top income rates used to be MORE punitively taxed is meaningless to me.

I'll never get the attitude that those in the higher brackets can pick up the lion's share of the tab on stuff like healthcare, because hey, they've got plenty already. By & large, most have worked incredibly hard to get there.

Tax rates that approach 40% seem insane to me. You can also tack on local taxes, sales taxes & other fees, and get a lot of folks closer to the 45-50% range. Half of someone's income? Completely unacceptable.

I wouldn't find it so offensive if there was any talk whatsoever, by either party, of any kind of meaningful deficit reduction - slashing the military, overhauling/privatizing SS, eliminating bureacracy. But there is none of that - not even talk, much less commitment.

It's BS - the whole thing, and it is way too accepted as just the cost of being an American. We can do a hell of a lot better, and suggestions that we can shouldn't be met with ridicule.

There not punitively taxed more. The only fair form of taxation is progressive taxation because the wealth disproportionately benefit from government services. Because they disproportionately benefit from those services they they are expect to pay taxes proportionately to how they benefit. That's not only fair it's the only rational system cause your not increasing revenue by raising taxes on the poor and working classes. Paying 39% of you income taxes because you make more then $250,000 a year would suck but from where I sit, that's a nice problem to have!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

True, they are not a PRIMARY consideration. They are, however, a consideration, and not an insignificant one. Taxes affect a business' bottom line. That in turn affect how much a business is able to expand its operations. taxes also affect individuals, and how much they have to spend. If a tax increase is anticipated, then businesses do not look at that as only how it affects their bottom line, but also the economy as a whole. A large percentage of small businesses cater to other businesses, such as a typical auto parts distributor will have far more small businesses in the form of private mechanics than they will have individual customers. Private contractors hire out to home builders, etc. When total buying power is diminished due to higher taxes, businesses hold off on hiring - NOT because taxes affect the cost of hiring another employee, but because the total effect on the economy in total buying power affects the probability there will be enough additional business to justify hiring that extra employee.

Yes, it IS a cost v benefit equation, but that equation is more involved than simply "this employee will generate X times their salary". The ability for the new employee to bring in more value than they cost is dependent on other factors INCLUDING TAXES.

That is correct but with the increase in taxes were talking about, even at the highest income brackets, you're talking less then 1% of operating cost. As Apple pointed out, it's not going to be the most important of the factors considered, though you to are right that it is certainly a factor, though a very small one.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Because with a few exceptions here and there, the party national committees are the ones who tell us who we have available for elections. And the national committees are about party power, not what is good for the nation or the People.

Should we consider switching to proportional government then and ditch winner take all elections?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Exactly right. The current seeming (or is it very real?) expectation of people to come straight out of school (be it HS, trade, CC or U, certificate of training through Doctorate) and jump into their career making top wages is unrealistic at best.

How many kids these days work themselves through college? How many even work while in college, let alone while in HS? My brother got where he is by working drudge for his company while still in HS, and continued to work PT and summers while getting is degree. By the time he has his masters, he also had a total of 12 years with the company. And THAt is what got him his management position, not just his sheepskin.

We need to get back to TANSTAAFL. Want to get to the top, gotta be willing to step on that bottom rung first.

Yup. Same here. As soon as I was old enough to get a work permit I got a job and worked till I graduated and I worked part time in college till I become a grad student. My first job out of college was as a lab tech and I made about half of what union scale unskilled workers made. Quit that job after two years cause it wasn't going no where and I got one in my present field that paid shit wages shoveling shit but at least that job gave me the opportunity to earn real experience.