ask a question get arrested:this guy had a press pass
- Thread starter evince
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T
TRGLDTE
Guest
It several floors down from the damaged area and there is no evidence of fire in that area. So what was the causitive agent? I watched that section of the tape several times, and granted it is somewhat grainy, but that's what I see. If there were a single significant expolsion, all the windows should blow out at one time - not in what looks to be an ordered sequence.
My initial impression very early on, which some of you may recall from other boards, was Euler buckling and heat degradation (not melting). So when the conclusion was the same, it mapped right to my mental image of 'truth' and I accepted it. Considering that I, originally from the NYC area, lost a dear friend and several school mates in the collapses, I suppose that I just really wanted to close the issue and be done.
Now I am starting to question based on anomalies. That does not necessarily mean that I accept conspiracy theories and "Bush did it." Right now I just plain don't know any more. I am questioning my 'truth.'
evince
Truthmatters
Thanks guys !
the films convienced me something is very very wrong with the initial report on the 911 tragedy.
If you listen and watch the films of the actual event and apply logic its enough to send your mind swirling into areas any American really doesnt want to find themselves.
I really wish I was wrong but unfortunately I think we may have been had by people who care nothing for this country and would do anything for power and profit.
We are told the fire melted thick steel beems and yet you see people standing in the hole left by the plane.
How could a person stand there if the fire was so intense?
the films convienced me something is very very wrong with the initial report on the 911 tragedy.
If you listen and watch the films of the actual event and apply logic its enough to send your mind swirling into areas any American really doesnt want to find themselves.
I really wish I was wrong but unfortunately I think we may have been had by people who care nothing for this country and would do anything for power and profit.
We are told the fire melted thick steel beems and yet you see people standing in the hole left by the plane.
How could a person stand there if the fire was so intense?
Well done trog. I respect your opinion on this.
I'm with you: I live in the facts and evidence-based world. I am not jumping to any conclusions about Bush doing this. But, if these anomalies are real, and don't match up with the official story, then its worth re-looking at this.
I'd still like to see a group of real, credible strucutal engineers evaluate this. I'm not liable to take the opinion of one engineer posting on a conspiracy website.
Well there are a few that things that could have gone on. They fell as a result of the planes alone. 9/11 conspirators planted bombs with the anticipation that the planes were going to hit.
If the two of these happened and we don't know about the former, I don't know if that is really going to change much for me or my feelings of that day. I'll probably question experts going forward, but all in all the basic premise is the same: we were attacked by terrorists.
The other and more grim option is that it was a conspiracy from within -be it the gov't or any of our allies. If that is the case, I'd have to personally see evidence that is virtually undisputable. But that is too dark of a path and I really don't even want to consider it.
If the two of these happened and we don't know about the former, I don't know if that is really going to change much for me or my feelings of that day. I'll probably question experts going forward, but all in all the basic premise is the same: we were attacked by terrorists.
The other and more grim option is that it was a conspiracy from within -be it the gov't or any of our allies. If that is the case, I'd have to personally see evidence that is virtually undisputable. But that is too dark of a path and I really don't even want to consider it.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
Funny... I could not find anything on CNN's website on this reporter having CNN credentials and getting kicked out of the CNN press room. Anyone else have any luck?
bob
a member named bob
well to be honest... you havent convinced me in much of anything... besides that you are wacky... witch i dont think is all that bad to be
Battleborne
Terminator
Good Lord...
This thread is way up there with the 'Tin Foil' crowd...jumps from voting machines to the towers being blown down by the government...sorry 'trog' ya may be a engineering student and all..but 'Fire Science 101' will put ya to shame...drafts in heated burning buildings will cause the so called 'Blow Outs' they cycle in pretty much a clinical sequence....I really feel sorry for all of you grasping at silly science and non-existent conspiracy theories to put your next lib in office...a sorry state of affairs...imho
This thread is way up there with the 'Tin Foil' crowd...jumps from voting machines to the towers being blown down by the government...sorry 'trog' ya may be a engineering student and all..but 'Fire Science 101' will put ya to shame...drafts in heated burning buildings will cause the so called 'Blow Outs' they cycle in pretty much a clinical sequence....I really feel sorry for all of you grasping at silly science and non-existent conspiracy theories to put your next lib in office...a sorry state of affairs...imho
C
Cancel5
Guest
WOW! Frog doing happy dance and finally able to remove tinfoil hat!
C
Cancel5
Guest
Hey Trog! will you please, now review the Pentagon videos...
I think there are a lot of unanswered questions and I have always stated so.
The curious minds just want to know!
I think there are a lot of unanswered questions and I have always stated so.
The curious minds just want to know!
T
TRGLDTE
Guest
Yeah, I'm grasping at straws to put the next lib in office. Oh, you figured me out! Don't tell anyone.
Heat rises, just like the smoke plumes coming off the towers, so why would windows 7 to 10 floors below the damage area blow OUTward?
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The odd design of the building supported the weight from the inside to the outside. Weight pressing down would expand the windows outward until they went past their tensile strength bursting in the direction of the outward bow. As the building began to fail this could create an impression of windows "blowing" outward. As each area lost supporting infrastructure it would cause the next to fail, each in a row. Again causing the appearance of "planned" failure.
A demolition crew by contrast would have taken out, with directed explosions, the internal support insuring full internal collapse. When you watch a well-conducted demolition of a building you will not see windows blowing outward from the explosions, only from the collapse. That this collapse went so slowly shows that the building was well-designed. That it collapsed into itself gives more of a sign of a well-engineered building than it does of a true demolition which would have happened so much quicker.
Agnosticus_Caesar
Fuck You Too
Facts:
-The Neocon "Think-Tank" named "The Project For The New American Century" (PNAC) stated that they had every intention of invading Iraq (for the sake of prolonged US global hegemony), as soon as the right regained power.
- PNAC also claimed that they knew Americans would not support such an invasion without an attack on The US of "Pearl Harbor Proportions"
- Amazingly enough, within Bush's first term, such an attack happened
- When Bush/Cheney "won", they hired Rumsfeld, Pearl, and Wolfowitz (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearl, and Wolfowitz were all PNAC memebers, and FOUNDING members at that.
- It has been well known, in our intelligence circles, for a while, that the foundation of Al Qaeda is "Global Caliphate'. This means, ONE WORLD NATION, under Wahabi Islam.
-Al Qaeda has always felt that the quickest, and most effective way to establish the "Global Caliphate", is to radicalize "The Arab Street" (the majority of people in the Arab world.
- Al Qaeda has always felt that the easiest, and most effective way to radicalize "The Arab Street" is if a western power were to attack an Arab nation.
- Prior to the US invasion, Iraq was a SECULAR Arab state...EXACTLY the manner of Arab state Al Qaeda would have hoped a western power would attack. the not only get the radicalizing influence they want, they also see a secular Arab state eliminated. Two birds with one stone.
-Remember, PNAC ADVERTISED this policy on the internet. They told THE WORLD that they truly wanted to attack Iraq, but only needed a massive attack on US soil to be able to do it.
- Al Qaeda would have LOVED to see us attack Iraq
- Ergo, The Neocons INVITED said attack
- Let's not forget that Bush was on vacation for a ridiculous portion of 2001, and that intelligence pointing out imminent attack was pretty much ignored
- Let's ALSO not forget that GWB was investigated for insider trading, and that he was not declared innocent. The case was dropped by the lead investigator of the FTC, who also happened to be Daddy Bush's personal lawyer, and close friend.
Think
-The Neocon "Think-Tank" named "The Project For The New American Century" (PNAC) stated that they had every intention of invading Iraq (for the sake of prolonged US global hegemony), as soon as the right regained power.
- PNAC also claimed that they knew Americans would not support such an invasion without an attack on The US of "Pearl Harbor Proportions"
- Amazingly enough, within Bush's first term, such an attack happened
- When Bush/Cheney "won", they hired Rumsfeld, Pearl, and Wolfowitz (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearl, and Wolfowitz were all PNAC memebers, and FOUNDING members at that.
- It has been well known, in our intelligence circles, for a while, that the foundation of Al Qaeda is "Global Caliphate'. This means, ONE WORLD NATION, under Wahabi Islam.
-Al Qaeda has always felt that the quickest, and most effective way to establish the "Global Caliphate", is to radicalize "The Arab Street" (the majority of people in the Arab world.
- Al Qaeda has always felt that the easiest, and most effective way to radicalize "The Arab Street" is if a western power were to attack an Arab nation.
- Prior to the US invasion, Iraq was a SECULAR Arab state...EXACTLY the manner of Arab state Al Qaeda would have hoped a western power would attack. the not only get the radicalizing influence they want, they also see a secular Arab state eliminated. Two birds with one stone.
-Remember, PNAC ADVERTISED this policy on the internet. They told THE WORLD that they truly wanted to attack Iraq, but only needed a massive attack on US soil to be able to do it.
- Al Qaeda would have LOVED to see us attack Iraq
- Ergo, The Neocons INVITED said attack
- Let's not forget that Bush was on vacation for a ridiculous portion of 2001, and that intelligence pointing out imminent attack was pretty much ignored
- Let's ALSO not forget that GWB was investigated for insider trading, and that he was not declared innocent. The case was dropped by the lead investigator of the FTC, who also happened to be Daddy Bush's personal lawyer, and close friend.
Think
T
TRGLDTE
Guest
Yes, the design was interesting. It was rather like a soda can. I certainly understand compressive failures, but the consideration you discuss above is not a full explanation of what the tape shows.
The building was square. Try this - draw a square. Start in the upper left corner labeling 1, go clockwise around labeling 2,3, and 4 at the corners. If the corner at 3 was failing, then we would see two series: (1) starting at 3 and moving toward 2, and (2) starting at 3 and moving toward 4. That is not what the evidence shows. It shows two series of blowouts occuring simultaneously - one starting at 3 and working toward 2, and the other starting at 2 and working toward 1.
Since the failures were unplanned, they come from different areas around the building. What you see are two separate failures, one from the loss of the outside support, and the other from more internal damage. That they happened at the same time speaks to the catastrophe of the day and not to any planned attempt to destruct the building in a grand conspiracy.
My description above was necessarily short and cannot describe the entirety of the failures that must have been occuring inside/outside and below the building. The entire square was effected by the fall of the two towers, making some of the nearby and undamaged by appearance buildings as dangerous as those that were clearly damaged. Foundations interlaced as the immensity of the buildings involved required more than a simple footprint.
Many complex failures happening at once would create your effect, in order for that to happen something spectacular had to happen. Had the building fell as the only damaged building in that interlaced grid I would fully agree and wonder at the spectacular failure. But we all know that this did not occur in a vacuum.
The building had internal, external, and foundation damages as well as damage due to the "quake effect" as the falling towers would provide action much like an earthquake as well as direct damage to the outside walls, part of the supporting infrastructure, inside it was shown that some of the supports had failed as well, all this coupled with damage to the interlaced foundations and seismic effect can cause amazing effects to a building.
As I said, that the building collapsed on itself as it was designed is nothing short of amazingly skilled engineering, but it certainly wasn't nefarious.
T
TRGLDTE
Guest
The argument that the tower collapsed at free fall speed is 'refudiated' by a simple examination of y=(1/2) at^2. t is too long for freefall meaning there was some net resistance, but that is not germane to the point at hand.
The buildings collapsed in on themsleves in a marvelous feat of engineering, you said. Tell me what architect or engineer you know who spends even one second designing based on the idea of a building collapsing in on itself?
It was required to get a permit to build that tall in that area of New York. So, basically, all of them that were building in that area of New York spent many more than one second designing the buildings to fail inwardly if they failed. In both cases they were marvelously successful.
And I never stated the buildings fell at free fall speed. Where did that inane strawman appear from? That would be impossible as there would be net resistence even from the tensile strengths of the building materials even if all support magically disappeared at once. Even if they did destroy the building on purpose it still would not fall at free fall speeds.
Many people attempt to describe what they expected rather than what the buildings were designed to do. The odd design of Tower 7 was because of the requirement of failing inwardly if they were to fail, the idea being the least amount of damage to the nearby buildings which would undoubtedly be severely damaged if the buildings failed directionally rather than inwardly.