At What Point?

domer76 said:
Yeah, that’s what I understand.

Some of the differences in the NT gospels I found interesting. For instance, when Joseph and Mary take the baby Jesus to the temple, one version of Luke says something about his “parents” presenting him, while another transcription reads “Mary and Joseph”. Obviously, a divine birth can’t have “parents” if one is God! That kind of thing.
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Sooooo those who adopt kids aren't their "parents"? I disagree. There's biological parents and there's parents who raise a child.

Your argument aside, I don't accept any stories that violate the rules of the Universe.
 
Obtenebrator said:
We certainly don't know who wrote the Gospels. But given that they were all written decades after the fact would certainly suggest they were not written by the Disciples.
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I would think if you read the bible "cover to cover" and practiced Christianity for 30 years, you would have known that no one ever claimed Luke and Mark were disciples of Jesus.

Luke is supposed to have been a companion of Paul, making him a second generation Christian. Mark is supposed to have been a companion of Peter, and there is some early second century written evidence that this is actually true.
 
domer76 said:
Yeah, that’s what I understand.

Some of the differences in the NT gospels I found interesting. For instance, when Joseph and Mary take the baby Jesus to the temple, one version of Luke says something about his “parents” presenting him, while another transcription reads “Mary and Joseph”. Obviously, a divine birth can’t have “parents” if one is God! That kind of thing.
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I think the inconsistencies are interesting too, and are evidence that the Gospels are independent sources reflecting different strands of oral and written traditions about Jesus circulating at the time.

The Jewish Talmud seems to possibly have an oral tradition claiming Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier. Pregnancy out of wedlock would have been scandal in first century Jewish society, and if it's true, the creation of divine birth stories to sweep it under the rug would be understandable
 
Cypress said:
I would think if you read the bible "cover to cover" and practiced Christianity for 30 years, you would have known that no one ever claimed Luke and Mark were disciples of Jesus.
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So that's where you stopped reading? Interesting. I actually put that up as preface to my later points. But I now understand why you not only misrepresent my points but so often feel the need to attack me personally in every counterpoint you make.

Also if you were actually HONEST you would note that my preface there was in direct response to the post I was replying to which was confirmatory of that point.

Again, you are too tied up in attacking me to actually read without malice.

Try being less hateful and more read-y

 
Obtenebrator said:
So that's where you stopped reading? Interesting. I actually put that up as preface to my later points. But I now understand why you not only misrepresent my points but so often feel the need to attack me personally in every counterpoint you make.
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So you didn't know that Luke and Mark were not ever claimed to be disciples of Jesus.
 
Obtenebrator said:
Cypress, just try to have a conversation with someone without being a dick. Just try.
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The fact that early christians attribute two of the gospels to relatively low ranking christians who were not even disciples of Jesus gives the claim a measure of credibility. IMO.

There is no propaganda advantage to claiming two relatively low ranking Christians were the authors of two of your canonical gospels.
 
Commander Dutch said:
Sooooo those who adopt kids aren't their "parents"? I disagree. There's biological parents and there's parents who raise a child.

Your argument aside, I don't accept any stories that violate the rules of the Universe.
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Mary was pregnant before she was married to Joseph. An unwed pregnancy would have been scandalous in Galilee, and not a fact contemporaneous acquainteces and members of the the Jesus movement would have forgotten. A miraculous divine pregnancy could have been a device to sweep this inconvenient fact under the rug
 
Cypress said:
I don't know what their doctrine is in Pentecostal and Southern Baptist churches, but walking on water is allegorical in other major Christian traditions.

We have to ask Jewish people about the Noah story, because that comes from the Torah.

The Resurrection seems medically impossible.
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YHWH can create the universe but can't walk on water,turn water to wine?
 
Cypress said:
Mary was pregnant before she was married to Joseph. An unwed pregnancy would have been scandalous in Galilee, and not a fact contemporaneous acquainteces and members of the the Jesus movement would have forgotten. A miraculous divine pregnancy could have been a device to sweep this inconvenient fact under the rug
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So you're not a believer? Then why are you obsessed with organized religion?
 
Cypress said:
Mary was pregnant before she was married to Joseph. An unwed pregnancy would have been scandalous in Galilee, and not a fact contemporaneous acquainteces and members of the the Jesus movement would have forgotten. A miraculous divine pregnancy could have been a device to sweep this inconvenient fact under the rug
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A plausible theory given Mary was pregnant before marriage. OTOH, Jesus had multiple brothers and sisters although IDK if they were older or younger. Obviously if older, that presents a problem for the "virgin birth" story.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 6 - New International Version

A Prophet Without Honor - Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him? What...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com
3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
 
Obtenebrator said:
There is the possibility of an earlier "source" document ("Q" as I recall) but beyond that it is difficult to tell where the Gospel stories came from.
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Good to see you have been following my myriad posts on pre-gospel written sources, and have backtracked and abandoned all previous claims that nothing was ever written about Jesus until many decades after his death, when the eyewitnesses to his ministry were conveniently dead.

The hypothetical and presumed lost Gospel of Q, the L source, the M source, the epistles of Paul are all considered by most scholars to have been written at or close the time of the earliest apostolic church in Jerusalem, shortly after Jesus died, and written at a time when some of the apostles were still alive and active in the apostolic church.

It's fundamentally wrong to say nothing was ever written about Jesus until many decades after his death.

It is more correct to say that writings and stories of Jesus go back to the time of the earliest apostolic Jerusalem church, but a lot of those writings were lost to the sands of time, but nonetheless were incorporated into the extant gospels that survived and we still do have.
 
Cypress said:
I think the inconsistencies are interesting too, and are evidence that the Gospels are independent sources reflecting different strands of oral and written traditions about Jesus circulating at the time.

The Jewish Talmud seems to possibly have an oral tradition claiming Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier. Pregnancy out of wedlock would have been scandal in first century Jewish society, and if it's true, the creation of divine birth stories to sweep it under the rug would be understandable
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Yeppers. There’s also the difference in words to describe her. One version is “young woman”, another is “virgin”.
 
Commander Dutch said:
A plausible theory given Mary was pregnant before marriage. OTOH, Jesus had multiple brothers and sisters although IDK if they were older or younger. Obviously if older, that presents a problem for the "virgin birth" story.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 6 - New International Version

A Prophet Without Honor - Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him? What...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com
3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
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One school of thought is that the apostle James and all Jesus' other brothers and sisters were half-siblings, from an earlier marriage Joseph had had.
 
Mason 22 said:
So you're not a believer? Then why are you obsessed with organized religion?
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Religion is fundamental to history, philosophy, sociology, anthropology.

I also like to teach holy rollers about their own religion, since they don't seem to know much about it.
 
Cypress said:
One school of thought is that the apostle James and all Jesus' other brothers and sisters were half-siblings, from an earlier marriage Joseph had had.
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Possible. Still, it leaves open the question about the lingeage of a carpenter crucified by the Romans and written about decades later.

Occam's Razor should be applied here. :) IMO, Mary wasn't as chaste or sexually pure as some like to believe.
 
Cypress said:
Good to see you have been following my myriad posts on pre-gospel written sources
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Because no one can be as smart or knowledgeable as the mighty CYPRESS.

STop.being.a.dick.

it's pretty simple. Even for someone as ethically challenged as you.

Cypress said:
, and have backtracked and abandoned all previous claims that nothing was ever written about Jesus until many decades after his death, when the eyewitnesses to his ministry were conveniently dead.
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I have talked about Q from the start. Sorry you have to continually lie about my position. It is sad.

You really are eaten up with your hatred of me and you can no longer be honest in your posts.

I am sorry for you. I wish you could learn from Jesus and try to be a better person, but hey, that's your path.

No one can be a smart as the mighty Cypress.

 
Cypress said:
Religion is fundamental to history, philosophy, sociology, anthropology.

I also like to teach holy rollers about their own religion, since they don't seem to know much about it.
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Jesus Christ...Everyone! See how smart Cypress is? He's smarter than all of you! Listen to Cypress. He's the smartest and he will tell you so.
 
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